Is that a close relative of Millibandwidth? Does he have an Owl Magnet?
Sounds about the same dunnit?
November 22, 2006 at 11:33 AM
Anonymous
said...
There is joy in heaven...
Great to see that the Tories are moving ever closer to Polly. I don't agree with everything she says, but a lot of it is just common sense, and motivated by a sense of social justice, and the fact that there is more to unite us Britons than divide us.
So why should we buy into the US way of having people in comfort at the top, and people without homes at the bottom - that just is not in line with British fair play.
And she has excellent ideas about how to eliminate poverty through investment in pre-school education which must appeal to Conservatives.
Toynbee is off the scale. At least other commentators realise they're talking rubbish - she actually believes that crap.
I remember her giving Auberon Waugh a good literary kicking after his death. Very brave that. She'd completely missed the point about him.
November 22, 2006 at 11:42 AM
Anonymous
said...
Polly and the Tories Sitting a tree K-i-s-s-i-n-g First came museli The right disparaged Cameron is a brain-dead cabbage
November 22, 2006 at 11:44 AM
Anonymous
said...
My rule of thumb is that any article Toynbee writes is nonsense and the opposite position must be true. News that she is having "influence" on Dave's social policy further reinforces my already growing doubts about Cameron and the nonsense he and his henchmen seem to be sponsoring (hug a hoodie, hug a huskie, hug a public sector worker). Is he a Tory or NuLab in disguise?
November 22, 2006 at 11:48 AM
Anonymous
said...
Can you fix the formatting so that annoying banner doesn't go straight across the middle of the text? </gripe>
November 22, 2006 at 11:50 AM
Anonymous
said...
Yes I saw this in the Telegraph this morning and I wondered if it was an April Fool. Probably just some little twerp trying to make a name for himself . the Polly reference has to be adeliberate red rag
The Conservative Party should help the poor , by reducing taxes on them ,by stemming the tide of immmigration into their communitites and by cutting back the corrosibve effect of the prent free Coucil housing
November 22, 2006 at 11:51 AM
Anonymous
said...
aaaaahem early April Fool that is ...
November 22, 2006 at 11:52 AM
Anonymous
said...
I nearly choked on my cornflakes this morning over the idea of the ranting Tories being spoonfed Pollyganda by the Opus Dave crew. I doubt it will wash: hugging a hoodie is one thing, embracing Polly is a step too far. Anyway, as a move which is bound to piss off a large number of right-wing bigots, it has my support.
November 22, 2006 at 11:55 AM
Anonymous
said...
Agreeing with a goals somene has set such as trying to stop society falling to bits is not the same agreeing with their tactics.. who, after all, is in favour of poverty or unemployment? Its just using Polly Parrot to get an interesting headline - wound you lot up didn't it.
The building behind him appears to be toppling over by the way either that or he has one leg a lot shorter than the other?
November 22, 2006 at 11:56 AM
Anonymous
said...
Guido, Any chance of finding out what Clark has been smoking? It must be some righteous strong sh*t. I need some to brighten up my sad and boring life.
November 22, 2006 at 12:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
I didn't realise Polly Toynbee was real until someone claiming to be her spoke on the radio today. I thought her newspaper columns were a long running spoof. You'll tell me next that Max Hastings is the name of a real person.
November 22, 2006 at 12:08 PM
Anonymous
said...
Polly Toynbee on BBC News 24 this morning is painting a picture of the UK as a Dickensian hell in which snotty- nosed urchins who’ve been sewn into their clothes for winter and wear wellies all year round are dying on the streets for want of more child benefit.
November 22, 2006 at 12:09 PM
Anonymous
said...
If Dave commits to implementing social Pollycy, then I promise to vote Tory at the next election.
November 22, 2006 at 12:21 PM
Anonymous
said...
He's only saying it to blur the lines and ease a few lefties into Dave's camp.
November 22, 2006 at 12:24 PM
Anonymous
said...
If the Conservative Party had elected the other Clarke we would not have nonesense from this little lad. Mind you look at the Shadow Chancellot well named as George OsBOYne.
Agreeing with Polly is deranged. How can any even supposed right-winger do this?
What next...Brown to say Thatcher should have closed more mines and shipyards? Bears to choose ope fields for defecationary purposes?
Polly has as much insight into the ills of our country as Guido does into the lives of ascetic Peruvian nuns.
November 22, 2006 at 12:33 PM
Anonymous
said...
Anon 11:39
So why should we buy into the US way of having people in comfort at the top, and people without homes at the bottom - that just is not in line with British fair play. Fine , if youre so bothered about poor people you buy them a house or give them money , its called charity , whereas what you an all other socialists suggest is theft. iam the best to decide what happens to MY money. You scumbag.
November 22, 2006 at 12:35 PM
Anonymous
said...
To put the record straight: Greg Clark did NOT say "Polly Toynbee is a serious thinker about social policy."
He did NOT argue that the desired image for Conservative policy is provided by Toynbee's picture of society.
By printing this rubbish - taken from a newspaper whose sole reason to exist is to keep this Labour so-called "government" in power - you are playing into their hands. So stop it.
November 22, 2006 at 12:45 PM
Anonymous
said...
mutleythedog: it looks to me as if the photo was taken in the Pantiles in Tunbridge Wells, which probably says more about where this wonk's true loyalties lie than anything that might appear in print.
November 22, 2006 at 12:46 PM
Anonymous
said...
Guido, you should have paid attention to who the Labour backbencher was - Martin Linton (Battersea). Tonybee's column yesterday specifically used the example of Tory scaremongering and misrepresentation on healthcare changes in Battersea.
Martin Linton was using it to make good political capital locally, rather than to attack the Tories nationally - very sensible given how marginal his seat is.
November 22, 2006 at 12:52 PM
Anonymous
said...
Are there non-ascetic Peruvian nuns?
Where do they host their raves?
Are there bears with marmalade?
Can I come?
November 22, 2006 at 12:53 PM
Anonymous
said...
Maybe they should invite Polly to speak at the next party conference? Or maybe she could start writing for the Torygraph? The Pollygraph has a much better ring to it. If Dave's looking for anyone to quote on civil rights, I heard Peter Tachell is available.
November 22, 2006 at 12:54 PM
Anonymous
said...
So-called John Bull, you're a bit of grumpy one aren't you! Maybe, like the Tories, you secretly love Polly? Maybe... you want to give her a little kiss?
November 22, 2006 at 12:56 PM
Anonymous
said...
Arthur Scargill is running Dave's new industrial relations taskforce.
November 22, 2006 at 12:58 PM
Anonymous
said...
hitchens - perhaps you would like to share with 'scumbag' and the rest of us just what charitable endeavours you have been involved with recently - do enlighten us.
Deciding to have a society where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer through no fault of their own, and then consigning them to live on charity - then having the audacity to blame them...Well that is the failed Conservative policy of the past.
Luckily, Polly Toynbee is about to show you all a new way, and Dave Cameron is listening...
anon 1:02 non of your business , why should it be? if I chose to ignore the poor so what? who are you say what is right or wrong or how much I should donate or whether I should even donate?
November 22, 2006 at 1:05 PM
Anonymous
said...
What's that ? Tories deciding not to vote ? Missing millions not returning to the ballot box ?
All over a story about Polly Toynbee ? Gosh, this is working even better than I thought...
November 22, 2006 at 1:06 PM
Anonymous
said...
'if I choose to ignore the poor so what?'
Fine, that is your choice.
But let us not pretend that you are a person who in any way should influence Government policy in this area.
November 22, 2006 at 1:10 PM
Anonymous
said...
off topic but - Are the BBC biased? they have cast the guy who played "the voice of London" in V for Vendetta as the Tory Leader in the Thick of it. seems a bit cheeky to me as the Voice of Lonodn was about as far from Cameron as you get. though i am sure some conservativehomers would approve. considering the film was a rant against right wing totalitarianism it is ironice the current threat seems to be coming from Reid and Brown
November 22, 2006 at 1:13 PM
Anonymous
said...
Is this Greg Clark the MP who got a 'charity champion' award in 2006 for his deep interest in restricting brownfield sites?
In which case one might suggest that his adoption of Polly Toynbee might be confusion with Pretty Polly lingerie. perhaps he needs a beard when he is not getting his paint-roller dunked in deep dark Tunbridge Wells
'Polly is considered by many Blairites to be a deranged 1970s-era leftie' ....who is on a nice little earner thank you very much.
November 22, 2006 at 1:21 PM
Anonymous
said...
Hey Peter Hitchens you w*nker, who's got the ear of the Tory party? You better start grovelling or I'll privatise your assets to hell and back (if there was a hell, me being an atheist humanist and all).
November 22, 2006 at 1:22 PM
Anonymous
said...
p.s. that wasn't the real polly toynbee, and wasn't Ros Taylor either.
November 22, 2006 at 1:23 PM
Anonymous
said...
My strategy of associating myself with the Tories seems to be working....cackle cackle ha ha ha ha evil cackle...my precious New Labour will be in power forever and ever...cackle cackle...my era of truly-eye popping taxation that would make even by beloved Swedish friends faint is nearly on us when the truly brilliant and giant among men, Gordon Brown assumes his rightful and gracious presidency of the known and unknown universe, only then will wrong be righted and we shall be governed in an enlightened and joyfully high tax manner. Let the rich eat my tax return I say!
November 22, 2006 at 1:45 PM
Anonymous
said...
But let us not pretend that you are a person who in any way should influence Government policy in this area.
Rather have him than you. PT has all the economic literacy of whelk. Despite it being constantly demonstrated that the best way to actually increase the tax take in the long term is to lower the percentage taken and stimulate growth (ie, take a smaller slice of a much bigger pie) she persists in screaming about people not being taxed enough. Whichis a joke for a start, but also ultimately demonstrates that her argument is not founded on economics, but on chippy socialism.
November 22, 2006 at 1:49 PM
Anonymous
said...
Re: toynbeeloather, if it's chippy socialism, then your beloved leader seems to have succumbed to it too. Besides the fact that your economic arguments are bullsh*t: just look at the budget defecit the US is running compared to a high tax land like Sweden (to use my prophet Pollys favourite example).
November 22, 2006 at 1:54 PM
Anonymous
said...
How to further improve the Tory Party #1 Change the name of the Conservative Policy Unit to the Conservative Polly-Says Unit
November 22, 2006 at 1:58 PM
Anonymous
said...
f it's chippy socialism, then your beloved leader seems to have succumbed to it too.
Yes. I didn't say I was happy about it.
compared to a high tax land like Sweden
would that be Sweden, where corporation tax is lower than in the UK? Even if the comparison was applicable, which it ain't, (given their resources to population ratio) the last time they implemented the policies she advocates was the back-end of the 80s and after not too long they were up to their arses in debt. And no, the Laffer curve isn't bullshit.
November 22, 2006 at 2:06 PM
Anonymous
said...
Guido, is not this 'Toynbee' thing one of those cynical 'kite-flying' exercises ? David Cameron is due to make a speech on the theme of poverty this week. So the spin is that he is going to sign up to the policies of Polly Toynbee - hook, line and sinker. Cue much wailing and gnashing of teeth among the Tory faithful/keepers of the Thatcherite flame / no turning back types.
Fast forward to Friday and speech contains no mention of Toynbee, but does refer to someone who in the absence of the fuss would have generated foaming in the mouths..
[No idea who, maybe somebody in the Will Hutton or Matthew Taylor orbit]. Deafening silence all round, and a successful news management operation, delivered.
November 22, 2006 at 2:33 PM
Anonymous
said...
Yes, that would be Sweden where the tax on production and imports is a full 4% of GDP higher than the UK, income taxes are more than 3% of GDP higher and as a result general government revenue is a whopping 17% of GDP higher than in the UK. http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page?_pageid=1996,45323734&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&screen=welcomeref&open=/B/B1/B13&language=en&product=Yearlies_new_economy&root=Yearlies_new_economy&scrollto=71 Guido's isn't the place for discussing policy, but you drove me to it.
November 22, 2006 at 2:37 PM
Anonymous
said...
How to further improve the Tory Party #2 Demand a ban on foxhunting and use the hounds to pull london busses, thus cutting down on greenhouse emissions.
Polly Toynbee should be starved to death. And Mr Clark should be shot.
November 22, 2006 at 2:46 PM
Anonymous
said...
Couldn't Polly be Dave's mate? I feel so very lonely......PS Anyone seen him recently?
November 22, 2006 at 2:53 PM
Anonymous
said...
Anonything at 1:13:
"deep interest in restricting brownfield sites?"
Any connection with Oaten's brown table sights
November 22, 2006 at 3:05 PM
Anonymous
said...
Typical public school boy socialist stuff.
It's Ok for Dave, Greg and all their posh mates living off the back of soiled old money. They can afford to pay the extra taxes to pay handouts to the chavs.
The rest of us 'silent majority', we're ground further into the dust
November 22, 2006 at 3:05 PM
Anonymous
said...
I wonder if Clark was inspired by Steve Bell's cartoons of Iraq -- 'Oh no - the camels are f**king themeselves!'
November 22, 2006 at 3:14 PM
Anonymous
said...
Anonymous (1:02 and 1:10 pm)
"But let us not pretend that you are a person who in any way should influence Government policy in this area"
Who are you to decide who should influence government, or for that matter that people have to give money to the poor? Why do you say that those who are poor get poorer or that their lot in life is through no fault of their own, when often neither is the entirely true? These are the ignorant assumptions of a good little communist, totalitarian and left-wing.
Certainly if we are (as is clear in this discussion) talking about more than a safety net, but giving the unemployed enough money for a comfortable life, that is entirely debatable. You are treating the issue in a completely anti-democratic way, as if it was beyond question that money I have earned through effort and endeavour should be taken off me and given to people who do no work for it. I live in an area where only those too physically or mentally ill to work are unemployed through no choice of their own, yet they are there. If someone can't be bothered to get a job, or refuses to present themselves in such a way that they are employable, then why should I be commanded to pay them money, on threat of imprisonment?
I've got a five year plan if anyone's interested....
November 22, 2006 at 3:36 PM
Anonymous
said...
Is it a cunning one gran?
November 22, 2006 at 3:47 PM
Anonymous
said...
How to further improve the Tory Party #3
Rename the Adam Smith Institute the Robin Hood Institute, with the mission of redistributing from the rich (Saatchi & co) to the poor (Pollys pals).
November 22, 2006 at 3:47 PM
Anonymous
said...
Anon 1:06,
Those missing millions? Would those be the same millions that certain deluded individuals "leant" to the Labour Party in exchange for seats in the legislature? The millions Jack Dromy knew nothing about and thus couldn't possibly be a feature of the accounts submitted to the Electoral Commission?
Please do tell us more, you little tease, you. We really would like to know. And so would a certain Mr Yates of Scotland Yard.
November 22, 2006 at 3:55 PM
Anonymous
said...
I think Brian Sewell summed it up pretty well when he referred to;
"the increasingly *bizarre* Polly Toynbee .."
November 22, 2006 at 3:58 PM
Anonymous
said...
This is Polly Toynbee. I will NOT be David Cracknell's mate. He is an odious invisible gum-chewer and far too common for someone like me.
November 22, 2006 at 3:59 PM
Anonymous
said...
This is the Sunday Times office. Anyone seen David Cracknell??
November 22, 2006 at 4:01 PM
Anonymous
said...
Re plan - very. As cunning as the cunningest ...oh fuck, Ben Elton was NEVER funny.
November 22, 2006 at 4:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
Polly - he could have you darlin'. I know because he's my mate.
November 22, 2006 at 4:04 PM
Anonymous
said...
If it hadn't been for people who preach like polly toynbee and govern like gordon brown none of us would have been put in moral hazard; now look at the state we're all in 20 miles up the Great North Road.
November 22, 2006 at 4:04 PM
Anonymous
said...
davidcracknellsonly mate - do you know where he is?? we are desperate to find him. Had a call from the CSA - whatever that maybe. They are very keen to find him concerning a couple of "little projects" -sounds interesting.
November 22, 2006 at 4:06 PM
Anonymous
said...
No idea - has he gone round to see Polly?
November 22, 2006 at 4:10 PM
Anonymous
said...
Polly put the kettle on Tories are coming for tea.............
Dave takes a kilo of sugar with his mug and Kent Clark from Tunbridge drinks it for him
This is like a Christmas Pantomime - Dave and the Seven Dwarves meet Jack & The Beanstalk
November 22, 2006 at 4:13 PM
Anonymous
said...
I'm a regular reader of the Sunday Times and I think David Cracknell is an excellent journalist.
November 22, 2006 at 4:13 PM
Anonymous
said...
God! Can someone kick David Cracknell's mum off this site!
Who would be a regular reader of the Sunday Times? You can make stories up yourself. It's cheaper and saves time.
November 22, 2006 at 4:22 PM
Anonymous
said...
Have any of you chattering twats actually read the paper? It's not about moving to the left, or even the centre. It's a serious consideration of how to define poverty, no more. No policy is delineated, as it cannot be formulated until you have your base axioms, of which this is one, clearly stated.
Never mind, mustn't let anything get in the way of a mindless rant.
And no, I'm not a NuLab mong. The paper says "What should Conservatives think now?" Now, you berks! Whilst underlying Conservative principles may remain unchanged, the world has moved on, so how you implement them has to be reconsidered.
November 22, 2006 at 4:23 PM
Anonymous
said...
But if this gets the 'missing millions' who voted for Blair back in the Tory fold, that has to be a good thing, surely ?
We don't want them pulling out an 'extra time' victory in the manner of John Major's upset ?
November 22, 2006 at 4:30 PM
Anonymous
said...
Im guilty of over posting , but you "cracknells" *shakes head* Are you in some kind of online club for cunts? Please dont answer.
November 22, 2006 at 4:31 PM
Anonymous
said...
BTW Guido, your pic seems to show that you've taken possession of an iPod. I thought you had no time for frivolity such as music. What might you be listening to?
November 22, 2006 at 4:34 PM
Anonymous
said...
Bernhard
We think you meet the necessary criteria. Would you like to join?
November 22, 2006 at 4:37 PM
Anonymous
said...
Presuming the Dave Cracknell posts are all the same tosser -please make him stop!
Peruvian raves are great. The high altitude means they are much less expensive on the beer front and there are plenty of nuns to help with the recovery.
You could even seek Polly's approval for attendance in the cuase of helping the poor of a poor country...
November 22, 2006 at 4:42 PM
Anonymous
said...
online 4:37
A proposal I will have to politely decline for the very same reason given by Groucho Marx.
November 22, 2006 at 4:43 PM
Anonymous
said...
Couldn't Stalin's gran arrange to have the unfunny 'Cracknell' person shot?
I read the Sunday Times...I like the idea of giving my 80 year old news paper boy a hernia....
November 22, 2006 at 4:51 PM
Anonymous
said...
I am sick to death with the fucking Poverty Pornographers ranging from Bono Geldoff, Brown Twatess Toynbee and other do gooders. The majority of poverty in UK is self inflicted - we have created a dependent underclass. Cut all benefits - unemployment, single mothers, the whole bleeding lot. Within a generation the feckless will have been reprogrammed to their benefit and ours. The funds saved sgould go to our pensioners - those who have worked not the fucking unemployed father of 15 by four different women. As for Poverty History campaign what a load of shite. It is bad governance in Africa that is the cause of poverty. Yet we patronising Caucasian do gooders toss our £ to the grateful natives who steal same or use to buy guns. How corrupt and dishonest we are.
Some time ago I read an article by Polly T in which she made an interesting point about the tax credit system much beloved by Gordon B. By making it possible for people to subsist on low wages (because they get a top up from the taxpayer)it enables employers such as the big Supermarkets to keep their staff wages articially low and hence their profitis artificially big i.e. you and I are subsidising people like Lord Sainsbury (who in turn...)
Where do the Tories get the idea that her statism is the way to go? They could well lose it all if they seriously listen to her J144 000 p.a. drivel.
November 22, 2006 at 5:54 PM
Anonymous
said...
Methinks the Tory Party is overblessed with Greg's at the moment!
November 22, 2006 at 5:55 PM
Anonymous
said...
Of course anyones favourite blog ( after guido) should be factchecking pollyanna
November 22, 2006 at 5:59 PM
Anonymous
said...
sorry about a bit of double posting here Guido but why don't you link to factchecking pollyana - I lack the necessary skills but I think this chap deserves all the hits he can get
November 22, 2006 at 6:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
But isn't the name of the game here electability ? Surely sounding like a load of old whingers isn't going to help ?
The old labour people who got very cross at the 'Clause 4' debate soon became an irrelevance when it was dropped, as the party got into power soon after.
They had to 'get with the program' and realise that times had changed and they had to change with it.
You are all in danger of sounding out of touch and a bunch of has-beens, just like Roy Hattersley and Derek 'Very Militant' Hatton.
November 22, 2006 at 6:14 PM
Anonymous
said...
No, anonymong 6.14pm, it is not just about electability.
You like NuLab ideas? Vote Red You like LibDemmery? Vote Yellow
No purpose is served by the Tories aping the left except the pursuit of power by the leadership.
If association with a winner is all you are after, join the Roger Federer fan club.
November 22, 2006 at 6:28 PM
Anonymous
said...
Markskipworth said:"Like Yasmin Alibi Brown, the only question you can ask about Polly is....why?"
That's not fair. YAB almost justified her existence today by writing, for the first time, an article I nearly agreed with in the Guardian - about how British Asians needed to stand up to their "representative" Imams.
Admittedly they are both walking reminders of the dangers of affirmative action and nepotism, but for once the YABber almost had something to say. And what do you know - it wasn't all my fault as a White Male Oppressor. Go figure. Maybe she's woken up to the fact that Female Genital Mutilation is a slightly worse problem than the lack of Muslim women MPs.
November 22, 2006 at 7:08 PM
Anonymous
said...
Further support for Polly Toynbee from John Redwood :-
I know the bastards are just trying trying to proke me into a Clause 4 moment, but at some stage you have got to believe that they are no better/worse than ZanuLab or the LDs. So what's the point in voting for them? I'm off before it gets any more silly.
November 22, 2006 at 7:59 PM
Anonymous
said...
Have you read the bloggers comments on Polly's articles recently? Even Guardian readers are choking on their cornflakes when they read the nonsense she churns out. Her latest, on the NHS, received a particularly hostile reception. One Guardian reader even accused her of getting her column ghosted by a newlabour apparatchik.
So now, when even Guardian readers have had a bellyfull of this "liberal commentator" (quote from BBC News, Radio 4, this evening) the Tories are supposed to snuggle up to her? Some mistake surely.
Maybe "Dave" could look into Nozickian definitions of slavery before looking at the "final-Solution" for poverty, i.e. tax the country to destruction.
Income Tax is state slavery. The econmic reasons for scrapping this tax come way second compaired to its moral problems.
(For those interested I'm in favour of a citizens dividend funded by a Geonomics based tax)
November 22, 2006 at 10:26 PM
Anonymous
said...
Maybe Tony was reluctant to endorse La Polla because she is a big fan of the Swedish way of doing things. I suspect that Polly simply apes this line because of Sweden's high tax, high spend reputation.
Methinks Tone, on the other hand, is at least au fait with the fact that those naughty vikings also espouse such heretical ideas like health insurance and school vouchers.
Ergo Tone is more intelligent than Polly.
Still doesn't stop that Clark idiot being a complete and utter tosser.
November 23, 2006 at 5:53 AM
Anonymous
said...
Anyone but blair You seem not to be living up to your name.
We have just had 10 years of a leader that was suposed to be a secret Tory liberal dressed up as a authoratarian socialist.
After that ten years we have had more authoratarian socialism trust down our necks then the Russians got for the first ten years after the Russian revolution.
So much for that theory.
The proof of spiv Camerons pudding will be in its eating. After all if he is another Tony Blair in terms of real policy its all over for this countries liberty anyway. So there then will either be a Right wing revolution in the form of the UKIP party or a Left wing revolution in the form of the BNP.
I personaly will just go and retire somewhere warm.
November 23, 2006 at 7:02 AM
Anonymous
said...
"I personaly will just go and retire somewhere warm."
Tonga, perhaps?
November 23, 2006 at 1:40 PM
Anonymous
said...
Polly is bonkers and a highly paid and over priveleged member of the left liberal metropolitan media but she is onto something with her writings about the lowly paid. And the Tories are damn right to seek to address it. It's that simple folks.
November 23, 2006 at 2:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
John Magor gave us tax credits to help the low paid. Gordon Brown used the system to take the piss out of the working man, and sad unfortuate gits that are stupid enough to employ anyone these days.
Tax credits only work for the benifit of the econemy and the low paid that they are intended to benifit when there is not also a means tested benifit system that makes a mockery of hard work and enterprise.
But then if the working classes of Britain really want to spend the whole of their working lives wanking and watching day time TV while immigrants take over their once great country. Thats just find by me.
November 25, 2006 at 6:18 AM
Anonymous
said...
Why are Tories so scared of change? Listening to Polly Toynbee's views is a sensible and intelligent thing to do. David Cameron is well sussed.
106 comments:
Is that a close relative of Millibandwidth? Does he have an Owl Magnet?
Sounds about the same dunnit?
There is joy in heaven...
Great to see that the Tories are moving ever closer to Polly. I don't agree with everything she says, but a lot of it is just common sense, and motivated by a sense of social justice, and the fact that there is more to unite us Britons than divide us.
So why should we buy into the US way of having people in comfort at the top, and people without homes at the bottom - that just is not in line with British fair play.
And she has excellent ideas about how to eliminate poverty through investment in pre-school education which must appeal to Conservatives.
A 12-year old strategy that still works like a charm
Toynbee is off the scale. At least other commentators realise they're talking rubbish - she actually believes that crap.
I remember her giving Auberon Waugh a good literary kicking after his death. Very brave that. She'd completely missed the point about him.
Polly and the Tories
Sitting a tree
K-i-s-s-i-n-g
First came museli
The right disparaged
Cameron is a brain-dead cabbage
My rule of thumb is that any article Toynbee writes is nonsense and the opposite position must be true. News that she is having "influence" on Dave's social policy further reinforces my already growing doubts about Cameron and the nonsense he and his henchmen seem to be sponsoring (hug a hoodie, hug a huskie, hug a public sector worker). Is he a Tory or NuLab in disguise?
Can you fix the formatting so that annoying banner doesn't go straight across the middle of the text? </gripe>
Yes I saw this in the Telegraph this morning and I wondered if it was an April Fool. Probably just some little twerp trying to make a name for himself . the Polly reference has to be adeliberate red rag
The Conservative Party should help the poor , by reducing taxes on them ,by stemming the tide of immmigration into their communitites and by cutting back the corrosibve effect of the prent free Coucil housing
aaaaahem early April Fool that is ...
I nearly choked on my cornflakes this morning over the idea of the ranting Tories being spoonfed Pollyganda by the Opus Dave crew. I doubt it will wash: hugging a hoodie is one thing, embracing Polly is a step too far. Anyway, as a move which is bound to piss off a large number of right-wing bigots, it has my support.
Agreeing with a goals somene has set such as trying to stop society falling to bits is not the same agreeing with their tactics.. who, after all, is in favour of poverty or unemployment? Its just using Polly Parrot to get an interesting headline - wound you lot up didn't it.
The building behind him appears to be toppling over by the way either that or he has one leg a lot shorter than the other?
Guido,
Any chance of finding out what Clark has been smoking? It must be some righteous strong sh*t. I need some to brighten up my sad and boring life.
I didn't realise Polly Toynbee was real until someone claiming to be her spoke on the radio today. I thought her newspaper columns were a long running spoof. You'll tell me next that Max Hastings is the name of a real person.
Polly Toynbee on BBC News 24 this morning is painting a picture of the UK as a Dickensian hell in which snotty- nosed urchins who’ve been sewn into their clothes for winter and wear wellies all year round are dying on the streets for want of more child benefit.
If Dave commits to implementing social Pollycy, then I promise to vote Tory at the next election.
He's only saying it to blur the lines and ease a few lefties into Dave's camp.
If the Conservative Party had elected the other Clarke we would not have nonesense from this little lad. Mind you look at the Shadow Chancellot well named as George OsBOYne.
Agreeing with Polly is deranged. How can any even supposed right-winger do this?
What next...Brown to say Thatcher should have closed more mines and shipyards? Bears to choose ope fields for defecationary purposes?
Polly has as much insight into the ills of our country as Guido does into the lives of ascetic Peruvian nuns.
Anon 11:39
So why should we buy into the US way of having people in comfort at the top, and people without homes at the bottom - that just is not in line with British fair play.
Fine , if youre so bothered about poor people you buy them a house or give them money , its called charity , whereas what you an all other socialists suggest is theft. iam the best to decide what happens to MY money.
You scumbag.
To put the record straight: Greg Clark did NOT say "Polly Toynbee is a serious thinker about social policy."
He did NOT argue that the desired image for Conservative policy is provided by Toynbee's picture of society.
By printing this rubbish - taken from a newspaper whose sole reason to exist is to keep this Labour so-called "government" in power - you are playing into their hands. So stop it.
mutleythedog: it looks to me as if the photo was taken in the Pantiles in Tunbridge Wells, which probably says more about where this wonk's true loyalties lie than anything that might appear in print.
Guido, you should have paid attention to who the Labour backbencher was - Martin Linton (Battersea). Tonybee's column yesterday specifically used the example of Tory scaremongering and misrepresentation on healthcare changes in Battersea.
Martin Linton was using it to make good political capital locally, rather than to attack the Tories nationally - very sensible given how marginal his seat is.
Are there non-ascetic Peruvian nuns?
Where do they host their raves?
Are there bears with marmalade?
Can I come?
Maybe they should invite Polly to speak at the next party conference? Or maybe she could start writing for the Torygraph? The Pollygraph has a much better ring to it. If Dave's looking for anyone to quote on civil rights, I heard Peter Tachell is available.
So-called John Bull, you're a bit of grumpy one aren't you! Maybe, like the Tories, you secretly love Polly? Maybe... you want to give her a little kiss?
Arthur Scargill is running Dave's new industrial relations taskforce.
hitchens - perhaps you would like to share with 'scumbag' and the rest of us just what charitable endeavours you have been involved with recently - do enlighten us.
Deciding to have a society where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer through no fault of their own, and then consigning them to live on charity - then having the audacity to blame them...Well that is the failed Conservative policy of the past.
Luckily, Polly Toynbee is about to show you all a new way, and Dave Cameron is listening...
John Bull
yet again you display a touching naiveté.
This is exactly what Cameron thinks, as do all those arseholes around him, they are not conservatives, merely power hungry urban liberals who wouldn't know a days work if it bit them on the arse.
They are exactly the same type of scum as new labour.And they will fail at the next election , labour voters will not convert and people such as myself who would normally vote conservative will just write the word c*** next to their candidates name.
anon 1:02
non of your business , why should it be?
if I chose to ignore the poor so what?
who are you say what is right or wrong or how much I should donate or whether I should even donate?
What's that ? Tories deciding not to vote ? Missing millions not returning to the ballot box ?
All over a story about Polly Toynbee ? Gosh, this is working even better than I thought...
'if I choose to ignore the poor so what?'
Fine, that is your choice.
But let us not pretend that you are a person who in any way should influence Government policy in this area.
off topic but - Are the BBC biased? they have cast the guy who played "the voice of London" in V for Vendetta as the Tory Leader in the Thick of it. seems a bit cheeky to me as the Voice of Lonodn was about as far from Cameron as you get. though i am sure some conservativehomers would approve. considering the film was a rant against right wing totalitarianism it is ironice the current threat seems to be coming from Reid and Brown
Is this Greg Clark the MP who got a 'charity champion' award in 2006 for his deep interest in restricting brownfield sites?
In which case one might suggest that his adoption of Polly Toynbee might be confusion with Pretty Polly lingerie. perhaps he needs a beard when he is not getting his paint-roller dunked in deep dark Tunbridge Wells
'Polly is considered by many Blairites to be a deranged 1970s-era leftie' ....who is on a nice little earner thank you very much.
Hey Peter Hitchens you w*nker, who's got the ear of the Tory party? You better start grovelling or I'll privatise your assets to hell and back (if there was a hell, me being an atheist humanist and all).
p.s. that wasn't the real polly toynbee, and wasn't Ros Taylor either.
My strategy of associating myself with the Tories seems to be working....cackle cackle ha ha ha ha evil cackle...my precious New Labour will be in power forever and ever...cackle cackle...my era of truly-eye popping taxation that would make even by beloved Swedish friends faint is nearly on us when the truly brilliant and giant among men, Gordon Brown assumes his rightful and gracious presidency of the known and unknown universe, only then will wrong be righted and we shall be governed in an enlightened and joyfully high tax manner. Let the rich eat my tax return I say!
But let us not pretend that you are a person who in any way should influence Government policy in this area.
Rather have him than you. PT has all the economic literacy of whelk. Despite it being constantly demonstrated that the best way to actually increase the tax take in the long term is to lower the percentage taken and stimulate growth (ie, take a smaller slice of a much bigger pie) she persists in screaming about people not being taxed enough.
Whichis a joke for a start, but also ultimately demonstrates that her argument is not founded on economics, but on chippy socialism.
Re: toynbeeloather, if it's chippy socialism, then your beloved leader seems to have succumbed to it too. Besides the fact that your economic arguments are bullsh*t: just look at the budget defecit the US is running compared to a high tax land like Sweden (to use my prophet Pollys favourite example).
How to further improve the Tory Party #1
Change the name of the Conservative Policy Unit to the Conservative Polly-Says Unit
f it's chippy socialism, then your beloved leader seems to have succumbed to it too.
Yes. I didn't say I was happy about it.
compared to a high tax land like Sweden
would that be Sweden, where corporation tax is lower than in the UK? Even if the comparison was applicable, which it ain't, (given their resources to population ratio) the last time they implemented the policies she advocates was the back-end of the 80s and after not too long they were up to their arses in debt. And no, the Laffer curve isn't bullshit.
Guido, is not this 'Toynbee' thing one of those cynical 'kite-flying' exercises ? David Cameron is due to make a speech on the theme of poverty this week. So the spin is that he is going to sign up to the policies of Polly Toynbee - hook, line and sinker. Cue much wailing and gnashing of teeth among the Tory faithful/keepers of the Thatcherite flame / no turning back types.
Fast forward to Friday and speech contains no mention of Toynbee, but does refer to someone who in the absence of the fuss would have generated foaming in the mouths..
[No idea who, maybe somebody in the Will Hutton or Matthew Taylor orbit]. Deafening silence all round, and a successful news management operation, delivered.
Yes, that would be Sweden where the tax on production and imports is a full 4% of GDP higher than the UK, income taxes are more than 3% of GDP higher and as a result general government revenue is a whopping 17% of GDP higher than in the UK.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page?_pageid=1996,45323734&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&screen=welcomeref&open=/B/B1/B13&language=en&product=Yearlies_new_economy&root=Yearlies_new_economy&scrollto=71
Guido's isn't the place for discussing policy, but you drove me to it.
How to further improve the Tory Party #2
Demand a ban on foxhunting and use the hounds to pull london busses, thus cutting down on greenhouse emissions.
Polly Toynbee should be starved to death. And Mr Clark should be shot.
Couldn't Polly be Dave's mate? I feel so very lonely......PS Anyone seen him recently?
Anonything at 1:13:
"deep interest in restricting brownfield sites?"
Any connection with Oaten's brown table sights
Typical public school boy socialist stuff.
It's Ok for Dave, Greg and all their posh mates living off the back of soiled old money. They can afford to pay the extra taxes to pay handouts to the chavs.
The rest of us 'silent majority', we're ground further into the dust
I wonder if Clark was inspired by Steve Bell's cartoons of Iraq -- 'Oh no - the camels are f**king themeselves!'
Anonymous (1:02 and 1:10 pm)
"But let us not pretend that you are a person who in any way should influence Government policy in this area"
Who are you to decide who should influence government, or for that matter that people have to give money to the poor? Why do you say that those who are poor get poorer or that their lot in life is through no fault of their own, when often neither is the entirely true? These are the ignorant assumptions of a good little communist, totalitarian and left-wing.
Certainly if we are (as is clear in this discussion) talking about more than a safety net, but giving the unemployed enough money for a comfortable life, that is entirely debatable. You are treating the issue in a completely anti-democratic way, as if it was beyond question that money I have earned through effort and endeavour should be taken off me and given to people who do no work for it. I live in an area where only those too physically or mentally ill to work are unemployed through no choice of their own, yet they are there. If someone can't be bothered to get a job, or refuses to present themselves in such a way that they are employable, then why should I be commanded to pay them money, on threat of imprisonment?
Random --
Well spoken!
I've got a five year plan if anyone's interested....
Is it a cunning one gran?
How to further improve the Tory Party #3
Rename the Adam Smith Institute the Robin Hood Institute, with the mission of redistributing from the rich (Saatchi & co) to the poor (Pollys pals).
Anon 1:06,
Those missing millions? Would those be the same millions that certain deluded individuals "leant" to the Labour Party in exchange for seats in the legislature? The millions Jack Dromy knew nothing about and thus couldn't possibly be a feature of the accounts submitted to the Electoral Commission?
Please do tell us more, you little tease, you. We really would like to know. And so would a certain Mr Yates of Scotland Yard.
I think Brian Sewell summed it up pretty well when he referred to;
"the increasingly *bizarre* Polly Toynbee .."
This is Polly Toynbee. I will NOT be David Cracknell's mate. He is an odious invisible gum-chewer and far too common for someone like me.
This is the Sunday Times office. Anyone seen David Cracknell??
Re plan - very. As cunning as the cunningest ...oh fuck, Ben Elton was NEVER funny.
Polly - he could have you darlin'. I know because he's my mate.
If it hadn't been for people who preach like polly toynbee and govern like gordon brown none of us would have been put in moral hazard; now look at the state we're all in 20 miles up the Great North Road.
davidcracknellsonly mate - do you know where he is?? we are desperate to find him. Had a call from the CSA - whatever that maybe. They are very keen to find him concerning a couple of "little projects" -sounds interesting.
No idea - has he gone round to see Polly?
Polly put the kettle on Tories are coming for tea.............
Dave takes a kilo of sugar with his mug and Kent Clark from Tunbridge drinks it for him
This is like a Christmas Pantomime - Dave and the Seven Dwarves meet Jack & The Beanstalk
I'm a regular reader of the Sunday Times and I think David Cracknell is an excellent journalist.
God! Can someone kick David Cracknell's mum off this site!
Yes, do fuck off. Please.
Who would be a regular reader of the Sunday Times? You can make stories up yourself. It's cheaper and saves time.
Have any of you chattering twats actually read the paper? It's not about moving to the left, or even the centre. It's a serious consideration of how to define poverty, no more. No policy is delineated, as it cannot be formulated until you have your base axioms, of which this is one, clearly stated.
Never mind, mustn't let anything get in the way of a mindless rant.
And no, I'm not a NuLab mong. The paper says "What should Conservatives think now?" Now, you berks! Whilst underlying Conservative principles may remain unchanged, the world has moved on, so how you implement them has to be reconsidered.
But if this gets the 'missing millions' who voted for Blair back in the Tory fold, that has to be a good thing, surely ?
We don't want them pulling out an 'extra time' victory in the manner of John Major's upset ?
Im guilty of over posting , but you "cracknells" *shakes head*
Are you in some kind of online club for cunts?
Please dont answer.
BTW Guido, your pic seems to show that you've taken possession of an iPod. I thought you had no time for frivolity such as music. What might you be listening to?
Bernhard
We think you meet the necessary criteria. Would you like to join?
Presuming the Dave Cracknell posts are all the same tosser -please make him stop!
Peruvian raves are great. The high altitude means they are much less expensive on the beer front and there are plenty of nuns to help with the recovery.
You could even seek Polly's approval for attendance in the cuase of helping the poor of a poor country...
online 4:37
A proposal I will have to politely decline for the very same reason given by Groucho Marx.
Couldn't Stalin's gran arrange to have the unfunny 'Cracknell' person shot?
I read the Sunday Times...I like the idea of giving my 80 year old news paper boy a hernia....
I am sick to death with the fucking Poverty Pornographers ranging from Bono Geldoff, Brown Twatess Toynbee and other do gooders. The majority of poverty in UK is self inflicted - we have created a dependent underclass. Cut all benefits - unemployment, single mothers, the whole bleeding lot. Within a generation the feckless will have been reprogrammed to their benefit and ours. The funds saved sgould go to our pensioners - those who have worked not the fucking unemployed father of 15 by four different women. As for Poverty History campaign what a load of shite. It is bad governance in Africa that is the cause of poverty. Yet we patronising Caucasian do gooders toss our £ to the grateful natives who steal same or use to buy guns. How corrupt and dishonest we are.
It would be a pleasure
I think Guido owes us all an apology for the title of this article. The idea of Polly giving anyone a "soundbite" is just too awful to contemplate.
"The idea of Polly giving anyone a "soundbite" is just too awful to contemplate."
Indeed, it sucks!
Like Yasmin Alibi Brown, the only question you can ask about Polly is....why?
Rem Acu Tetigisti, Herr Doktor Crackmeister
Some time ago I read an article by Polly T in which she made an interesting point about the tax credit system much beloved by Gordon B. By making it possible for people to subsist on low wages (because they get a top up from the taxpayer)it enables employers such as the big Supermarkets to keep their staff wages articially low and hence their profitis artificially big i.e. you and I are subsidising people like Lord Sainsbury (who in turn...)
The ignorant cunt.
Where do the Tories get the idea that her statism is the way to go? They could well lose it all if they seriously listen to her J144 000 p.a. drivel.
Methinks the Tory Party is overblessed with Greg's at the moment!
Of course anyones favourite blog ( after guido) should be factchecking pollyanna
sorry about a bit of double posting here Guido but why don't you link to factchecking pollyana - I lack the necessary skills but I think this chap deserves all the hits he can get
But isn't the name of the game here electability ? Surely sounding like a load of old whingers isn't going to help ?
The old labour people who got very cross at the 'Clause 4' debate soon became an irrelevance when it was dropped, as the party got into power soon after.
They had to 'get with the program' and realise that times had changed and they had to change with it.
You are all in danger of sounding out of touch and a bunch of has-beens, just like Roy Hattersley and Derek 'Very Militant' Hatton.
No, anonymong 6.14pm, it is not just about electability.
You like NuLab ideas? Vote Red
You like LibDemmery? Vote Yellow
No purpose is served by the Tories aping the left except the pursuit of power by the leadership.
If association with a winner is all you are after, join the Roger Federer fan club.
Markskipworth said:"Like Yasmin Alibi Brown, the only question you can ask about Polly is....why?"
That's not fair. YAB almost justified her existence today by writing, for the first time, an article I nearly agreed with in the Guardian - about how British Asians needed to stand up to their "representative" Imams.
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/yasmin_alibhaibrown/2006/11/post_674.html
Admittedly they are both walking reminders of the dangers of affirmative action and nepotism, but for once the YABber almost had something to say. And what do you know - it wasn't all my fault as a White Male Oppressor. Go figure. Maybe she's woken up to the fact that Female Genital Mutilation is a slightly worse problem than the lack of Muslim women MPs.
Further support for Polly Toynbee from John Redwood :-
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,,1954548,00.html
I'm sorry I supported David Davis. Please give me a job. Please.
I can't wait to hear Lord Saatchi's views on the caravan...
Perhaps he could suggest sending Margaret Beckett across the Gobi desert in her one...
I know the bastards are just trying trying to proke me into a Clause 4 moment, but at some stage you have got to believe that they are no better/worse than ZanuLab or the LDs. So what's the point in voting for them? I'm off before it gets any more silly.
Have you read the bloggers comments on Polly's articles recently? Even Guardian readers are choking on their cornflakes when they read the nonsense she churns out. Her latest, on the NHS, received a particularly hostile reception. One Guardian reader even accused her of getting her column ghosted by a newlabour apparatchik.
So now, when even Guardian readers have had a bellyfull of this "liberal commentator" (quote from BBC News, Radio 4, this evening) the Tories are supposed to snuggle up to her? Some mistake surely.
Oh christ she was just on the news....
It's all real!
I thought this was just a sick joke...
Maybe "Dave" could look into Nozickian definitions of slavery before looking at the "final-Solution" for poverty, i.e. tax the country to destruction.
Income Tax is state slavery. The econmic reasons for scrapping this tax come way second compaired to its moral problems.
(For those interested I'm in favour of a citizens dividend funded by a Geonomics based tax)
Maybe Tony was reluctant to endorse La Polla because she is a big fan of the Swedish way of doing things. I suspect that Polly simply apes this line because of Sweden's high tax, high spend reputation.
Methinks Tone, on the other hand, is at least au fait with the fact that those naughty vikings also espouse such heretical ideas like health insurance and school vouchers.
Ergo Tone is more intelligent than Polly.
Still doesn't stop that Clark idiot being a complete and utter tosser.
Anyone but blair
You seem not to be living up to your name.
We have just had 10 years of a leader that was suposed to be a secret Tory liberal dressed up as a authoratarian socialist.
After that ten years we have had more authoratarian socialism trust down our necks then the Russians got for the first ten years after the Russian revolution.
So much for that theory.
The proof of spiv Camerons pudding will be in its eating. After all if he is another Tony Blair in terms of real policy its all over for this countries liberty anyway. So there then will either be a Right wing revolution in the form of the UKIP party or a Left wing revolution in the form of the BNP.
I personaly will just go and retire somewhere warm.
"I personaly will just go and retire somewhere warm."
Tonga, perhaps?
Polly is bonkers and a highly paid and over priveleged member of the left liberal metropolitan media but she is onto something with her writings about the lowly paid. And the Tories are damn right to seek to address it. It's that simple folks.
John Magor gave us tax credits to help the low paid. Gordon Brown used the system to take the piss out of the working man, and sad unfortuate gits that are stupid enough to employ anyone these days.
Tax credits only work for the benifit of the econemy and the low paid that they are intended to benifit when there is not also a means tested benifit system that makes a mockery of hard work and enterprise.
But then if the working classes of Britain really want to spend the whole of their working lives wanking and watching day time TV while immigrants take over their once great country. Thats just find by me.
Why are Tories so scared of change? Listening to Polly Toynbee's views is a sensible and intelligent thing to do. David Cameron is well sussed.