I don't really know what the chap said that was wrong....
I thought he was just saying what everyone else thinks...
August 16, 2006 at 3:31 PM
Anonymous
said...
Disgraceful! Unless this man is reinstated immediately, I shall refuse to renew my Orange contract. Like the MPAC loons, I now hate Orange as well.
It would have made better business sense to keep him on, that way only one set of individuals would have been offended.
August 16, 2006 at 3:34 PM
Anonymous
said...
Islamofascism strikes back. This is of course the first stage in instituting an overall policy of censorship, whereby the muslim world has first bite at whatever story is being published and will demand a spin more favourable to them. The Americans would treat this as an attack on free speech and the freedom of the press. More to the point if Inigo Wilson undertook the article in a private capacity it is an unwarranted intrusion into the private life of an individual. Chakrabarty and Liberty should defend Wilson's right to free speech.
August 16, 2006 at 3:40 PM
Anonymous
said...
He can add a new word to his lexicon: dooced.
August 16, 2006 at 3:48 PM
Anonymous
said...
Go to the lexicon and read the last few comments below it.
Then cry.
August 16, 2006 at 3:56 PM
Anonymous
said...
According to a comment left on Conservative Home, someone received an e-mail from Orange stating that they have suspended this fella "subject to investigation"
I really hope this is not true. This whole thing leaves an extremely nasty taste in my mouth.
August 16, 2006 at 3:58 PM
Anonymous
said...
This complaint does even make sense:
(1) It's a joke piece, implying that Wilson doesn't actually believe that islamophobe means that.
(2) Even if it weren't a joke piece, Wilson is saying that this is how the left defines islamophobia, not himself.
Not to say that a reasonable complaint about the piece couldn't be made, on the grounds of insensitivity or somesuch, but the reasons given in the letter are nonsense.
So the question for Orange now is are there more Tories who value speech in the UK than there are vaguely militant Islamists who can't take a joke (albeit an ill-advised one)?
August 16, 2006 at 4:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
So much for freedom of speech! I read that article on ConservativeHome (from a link on Iain Dale, I think. I really liked it. Can't the Muslims accept the British sense of humour?
Though, having said that, the anti-anti-muslim police are probably on their way round to arrest me for using my right to free speech.
If this be true, His Grace will be kicking up a bit of a stink.
At the very least, he will closing his Orange account, and publicing the reason in the pulpit on Sunday. Confirmation asap, please.
+Cranmer
August 16, 2006 at 4:03 PM
Anonymous
said...
Orange won't miss him, surely. Speaking to the "Bracknell News" Orange spokesman Inigo Wilson said:
"There is no evidence of the adverse health effects of mobile phone masts. If anything the most dangerous health effects come from using handsets rather than from living near masts."
Speaking as a libertarian I have no objection to companies firing people on whatever grounds they want.
That doesn't, however, change the fact that the grounds here are extremely lame and that both Orange and MPAC need to chill out and learn how to have a laugh.
August 16, 2006 at 4:08 PM
Anonymous
said...
I've heard of 'em choking on Orange, but suspended by one seems erm, novel.
August 16, 2006 at 4:13 PM
Anonymous
said...
Hmm - that wasn't too clever now was it?
Just goes to show we should all be 100% in favour of free speech - no matter how offensive. Makes it much easier to judge others!
August 16, 2006 at 4:15 PM
Anonymous
said...
Advice to Orange.
Tell them to fuck off and switch to Vodaphone. Sack this man and my account moves from Orange to Vodaphone.
August 16, 2006 at 4:17 PM
Anonymous
said...
Good grief, here we go again...were they REALLY offended by this or is this just another opportunity for someone to create mischief?
The boys in the Muslim Political Action Committee need to get a life and go out a bit more.
Inigio's comments may have been hilarious/funny/mildly amusing/ not in the slightest bit funny / downright offensive depending on your view. The Committee's response however, is another example of how certain people seem to demand the right not be offended.
Having read the letter to Orange, there are imho a number of statements that show deeply flawed logic (e.g I do not understand how the committee can justify the claim that "this comment is clearly trying to falsely polarise the problem of Islamist terrorism by saying that all muslims are terrorists").
To write in this way to Orange demanding Inigo's head on a plate (joke) shows the cultural chasm between self appointed Political Action Committees and, I suspect, the majority of the remaining population.
August 16, 2006 at 4:21 PM
Anonymous
said...
This would be the same MPAC which on its website says that 'Lord Kalms supports the massacre of children'.
Militant lobby group supporting religio-ethnic minority. Just what these guys criticise on the Capitol. And no sense of the mot juste. Another case of failed UK integration policies in that quarter methinks. Break out the comedy classics at the airports.
Presumably being 'community affairs spokesman' involves some element of buttering up Muslims etc.
That being so, it was pretty daft of Inigo to commit his feeble jokes to print/pixels. One way or another, it suggests he's probably not very good at his job.
Had he been the bloke who fixes the masts or sells you airtime contracts in the high street, there probably wouldn't be all this fuss.
August 16, 2006 at 4:30 PM
Anonymous
said...
If I was a Community PR man for Vodafone and had written a poorly drafted joke definition against judaism ("antisemite: one who disagrees with a jew"), I would not be surprised to get the sack.
If the guy was a call centre worker, then fair enough. But he is employed to improve the image of his company among the community. There can't be many more high profile communities in the UK at the moment than the Islamic one. He's therefore shafted his company and probably committed gross misconduct into the bargain.
He's got nothing to whinge about - and neither have you lot.
Yet another attack on freedom from an Islamist group. Quite what Inigos commenst have to do with his employment at Orange is beyond me. Nowhere in the artice does Inigo mention Orange, it is referred to in the comments beneath. So someone has searched for his employment in order to complain to his employer. Well I work for a large investment bank. MCPAC UK - why not complain to them about this post. Make my day. Does this mean that if any of us make a comment on the web that MCPAC UK or other Islamist groups dislike they will complain to our employers and (they hope) get us fired or at the very least repress our free speech through such an implict threat. This is a brutal supression of freedom of speech akin to 1930's Germany where if I say something you dislike you can damage me and my family by destroying my career and removing my source of income. Another small step to the Islamisiation of Britain
August 16, 2006 at 4:36 PM
Anonymous
said...
Ha! He baited, they bit, and now he's in trouble. Deserves everything he gets.
While we're on the subject, I hope everyone else will join me in saying bollocks to all you anti-political-correctness wankers. Yep, that's right, it's just not cool to be racist. Not even a little bit.
Hide behind your 'political correctness has turned the world mad' rubbish if you like, I quite like the fact that people are nice to each other.
Sorry for the rant. They just really fuck me off.
August 16, 2006 at 4:39 PM
Anonymous
said...
PS On rereading the complaints letter I wonder if it isn't libellous, since the original article clearly did not have the intent these bozos claim.
One for some crusading lawyers (poor choice of words I know).
August 16, 2006 at 4:43 PM
Anonymous
said...
To ensure parity of offence the lexicon should have included: Anti-Semintism - Inability to sympathise with theft of land and property, and imprisonment without trial. Israelis - people who believe carpet bombing is an appropriate response to a border skirmish.
August 16, 2006 at 4:45 PM
Anonymous
said...
charlieboy - spot on
August 16, 2006 at 4:46 PM
Anonymous
said...
Personally, I love all IslamoFascists and cannot wait for the day when Sharia Law is the way of life here in Britain. Hopefully George Galloway will be the leader of the British Islamic Republic and we can all just have such a wonderful fukking life it makes me puke with excitement thinking about it...oh please please please can we all please do it the Osama way....of course, this blog would no longer exist because such freedom of thought & speech would be banned...and of course my gay friends would be executed...bit of a shame, I'll definitely miss them...and of course that chick who performed "shakuhatchi" on me at the club last night would no doubt be stoned to death...but at least that'd save me from having to call her again..Anyway, small sacrifices really cos other than that Sharia Law is so totally awesome. Can't believe any one of you lot can even possibly say the slightest negative thing about it....and this geezer who's been suspended should be stoned for saying such vile despicable things.... Whoa...huh?...sorry...seem to have gone thru some kind of brain spasm there...where am I? what the?
August 16, 2006 at 4:52 PM
Anonymous
said...
According to the Police website, a "Racist Incident (is) Any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."
Well, I percieve that Islamists who complain about the free speech we enjoy in this (our) country are creating a Racist Incident. I wonder if the Police will investigate THAT????
August 16, 2006 at 4:54 PM
Anonymous
said...
The Muslim Political Action Committee are tossers, everytime something like this happens I bet the BNP can't print off application forms quick enough.
August 16, 2006 at 4:54 PM
Anonymous
said...
A couple of things he missed.
'Community Affairs spokesman' - a complete idiot who is clearly unemployable in any real job.
MCPAC spokesman - a complete idiot who is clearly unemployable in any real job.
August 16, 2006 at 4:58 PM
Anonymous
said...
Thought police now in residence on all blogs. Got a joke, an opinion or even a thought that includes the word Islam, forget it. British sense of humour is now banned. RIP.
August 16, 2006 at 4:58 PM
Anonymous
said...
Reality Check:
Indigo is Orange’s “community affairs manager” and his remarks have caused deep offence; no wonder Orange have suspended him pending an investigation.
August 16, 2006 at 4:59 PM
Anonymous
said...
Maybe those Spanish train bombers were Orange customers ? Probably "pay as you go".
August 16, 2006 at 5:05 PM
Anonymous
said...
Sorry. I've missed the story here.
Man affects 'jokey' racism, implicates his employer and is suspended. End of, surely?
And yes, racism can be funny sometimes, but a PR who drops his employer in it to this extent is a liability.
Some Muslims are touchy, but surely an 'anarco-capitalist' such as yourself can't be upset if a private company chooses to hire and fire who they please in pursuit of profit?
Perhaps some state intervention needed, eh?
August 16, 2006 at 5:05 PM
Anonymous
said...
Charlieboy..thanks for your comments, but you don't seem very nice (even though you claim to prefer that) in your comments calling people like me who hate PC nonsense a wanker but thats by the by. Inigo wasn't racist..I abhor racism but Islamist organisations like MCPAC and spokesmen like Idiot Bungle are virulently racist in their islamist views, or hadn't you noticed? Perhaps you didn't notice that Idiot (MCPAC's spokesidiot) allegedly recently threatened to slit a right wing bloggers throat (or a PC in Reuters (where Idiot works) around the same time as Idiot was reading LGF in Reuters sent such an email to LGF)? I don't think Inigo has it coming, unfotunately it's we who have it coming if MCPAC and it's ilk get their way.
August 16, 2006 at 5:08 PM
Anonymous
said...
"While we're on the subject, I hope everyone else will join me in saying bollocks to all you anti-political-correctness wankers. Yep, that's right, it's just not cool to be racist. Not even a little bit."
Since when was Islam a race?
And has it not occurred to you that he was simply joking? Is everyone who makes a "there was an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman" joke a closet racist?
Don't you think it's healthy for people to be able to laugh at themselves and each other?
August 16, 2006 at 5:12 PM
Anonymous
said...
MPAC do not represent all muslims, they are a extremist group, who I would hope that a company with any back-bone at all would ignore. Although I'm sure Guido and Inigo would disagree with the policy, an indication of how extremist they are is that they are a group who has been no-platformed alongside the BNP by the NUS.
August 16, 2006 at 5:13 PM
Anonymous
said...
"Perhaps some state intervention needed, eh?"
Where has Guido said that? Libertarians prefer boycotts and consumer pressure. That seems to be what Guido is encouraging.
August 16, 2006 at 5:16 PM
Anonymous
said...
Yep, that's right, it's just not cool to be racist. Not even a little bit.
Absolutely.
But Islam is not a race, it's a set of beliefs.
So your point is...?
----
And in any case, in the present situation only Muslims are trying to blow up aircraft by suicide bombing, etc. Far from all Muslins, for sure. But only Muslims are trying to do this.
On that basis, islamophobia is in fact entirely rational and reasonable. If Muslims object to being catagorised like this, they have only themselves, as a 'community', to blame.
If they want islamophobia to end, then they must themselves , as a 'community', find a way to end it.
From another holy book, one Muslims would read: "Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?"
Sorry if this is not very amusing, Guido. But this matter goes to the very heart of whether or not we are going to allowed to be amusing in the future. And other things.
August 16, 2006 at 5:20 PM
Anonymous
said...
Charlieboy@4:39
In your PC world it's OK for you to call people you don't like "wankers", but presumably it's not OK if I call Islamofascist head-hackers, Guardian readers, etc "wankers"?
Bloody thickie lefties and their inconsistent double-standards, eh?
Spread the word, too. Get everyone you know who is on Orange to write to them stating that you will take your custom elsewhere if they DO sack him.
August 16, 2006 at 5:30 PM
Anonymous
said...
since when was Islam a race?
well said that man.
August 16, 2006 at 5:33 PM
Anonymous
said...
Offensive or not, Orange should fire this bloke for being a bloody idiot. Has he not realised that if you want to say that sort of thing, you do it anonymously and certainly don't link it, even tenuously, with your employer?
August 16, 2006 at 5:34 PM
Anonymous
said...
no longer anonymous
Just because he was attempting to make a joke, doesn't make Inigo Wilson's comments any more offensive, nor Orange's actions any more surprising.
To a certain extent, yes, Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman jokes *are* offensive - I am Irish and I am sometimes (albeit very rarely) offended by them - and only then when the jokes are shite.
However rarely this occurs, it is even rarer that I comment, because nothing is worse than appearing not to be able to take a joke.
I hazard a guess that you haven't been on the end of this yourself and so it probably isn't your fault that you're a little bit ignorant of this.
But this is off the subject: Guido's posts seem to be concerned with Orange's treatment of their employee. That would be the community relations manager who's just labelled an entire community as train bombers. And people are surprised he has been fired? I fail to see the issue.
For all you lot frothing at the mouth, it is emphatically *not* an issue of free speech. Inigo Wilson is free to say whatever he wants - as he has done.
He just shouldn't be surprised if that lands him with a P45 because his speech is at odds with the interests of the company by whom he is employed.
August 16, 2006 at 5:40 PM
Anonymous
said...
Islamophobia is defined by MPAC as an irrational fear of Islam. How then are we to define those fearing Islam for entirely rational reasons?
August 16, 2006 at 5:40 PM
Anonymous
said...
I feel for Mr Wilson and wish him luck in retaining his job following Orange's investigations. Hopefully if Orange do conclude Mr Wilson is fit to remain in their employ he will then wait a short length of time before handing in his notice and taking a new job with an employer less inclined to bow to pressure from such a small and politicised group of people.
Looking at Mr Wilson's article, much of seems bang on the money to me - I particularly like "issues around" and "inappropriate" - two scourges of modern life.
However, whilst I do not think Mr Wilson is guilty of the very serious charges of racialism and Islamophobia that are being levelled I do think he and Conservative Home have been a little unwise - the definition of Palestinians does go too far and could be construed as suggesting that all Palestinians have a tendency towards murdering teenagers. (The definition of Islamophobia seems to me to be far less contentious in that its target seems far more clearly to be the alleged tendency of the left to see bigotry where none exists rather than any alleged tendency of Muslims towards bombings.)
And whilst it was true that the article made no mention of Orange, I do not see why it was necessary to mention Mr Wilson's employment at all in the preface to the article - it will weaken his case that he was writing in an entirely private capacity which will surely be the keystone of any defence of his behaviour that he is required to present to Orange.
Anyway, a cautionary tale for us all that we have to be very careful nowadays when discussing political views in open fora on the web particularly if those views are uncompromising as regards some of the more controversial issues of the age. Once again, I am reminded why I nearly always post anonymously on this and other websites despite the trenchant views of e.g. Mr Fawkes against such lily-liveredness.
August 16, 2006 at 5:44 PM
Anonymous
said...
For all those splitting hairs over the semantics of whether anti-islamic comments are racist or not, The Cambridge Dictionary defines race as:
"a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc" (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=65069&dict=CALD)
The future was Orange. Now it will be some other mobile service provider.
August 16, 2006 at 5:56 PM
Anonymous
said...
Graybo - Inigo has every right to freedom of expression under his own name. although I guess that with a name like his it wouldn't take long to find him. It's pretty sad though if we have to use an pseudonym any time we risk upsetting anybody however over-sensistive.
His critics are proving his point for him - his article was all about the way the left uses language as a tool of thought control to promote its own world view & shut down debate. He makes it clear elsewhere that he completely disapproves of stereotyping people by gender, race or class.
August 16, 2006 at 6:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd,
If 'race' is defined as "a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc", then Islam is most emphatically NOT a race.
It is absolutely obvious that all Muslims do NOT share the same language, or the same history, or the same characteristics.
QUED
You are talking twaddle.
August 16, 2006 at 6:03 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd, why? Do Somali Muslims share language, history and characteristics with Iranian ones?
August 16, 2006 at 6:08 PM
Anonymous
said...
@pmd You idiot. Muslims the world over speak an array of languages, have many different histories and characteristics, and are as varied as Christians. Islam is no more a race than Christianity or Buddhism. Does taking the piss out of Richard Gere for his mountain meditations count as racism?
August 16, 2006 at 6:24 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd said..."I think this means Islam is a race."
Like Mormonism, then? And exactly what "race" is a white Scotsman who converts?
August 16, 2006 at 6:34 PM
Anonymous
said...
He wants a position in the Conservative Party. He must have known thta his comments would get him into trouble with Orange. He must also have known that this would gain him a lot of publicity.
It seems the law is something at odds with your dictionary. Currently the only religious groups that are defined as races are Jews and Sikhs, on the basis that they are predominantly non-aquisitive religions - ie you generally have to be born one to be one. Christianity and Islam are 'just' beliefs and therefore not covered by race law - hence the recent attempt to get the religious intolerance/heresy law passed.
Speaking as an antitheist, I resent strongly any attempt to gag me in criticism of any religion. This doesn't mean that I think Orange are wrong to suspend and subsequently discipline Inigo Wilson, who seems to have had a fit of poor judgement as a 'community affairs manager'. However, it would be interesting to see if their reaction would have been the same if he was in a backroom job.
For the rest of you contemplating switching phone accounts, he only reason you need to leave Orange is that they are owned by the French.
August 16, 2006 at 6:44 PM
Anonymous
said...
Yeah, I'd have sacked him too Guido. For being so unfunny and a big wally. Hardly what you need for PR...I hope the Tories dont employ him to do theirs...
August 16, 2006 at 6:45 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd In my book it most certainly does not. All muslims do not share the 3 things you mention. So Islam is not a race by your definition.
However that definition must be crazy anyway, written by Oxford University loonies or not. Under it I could only possibly describe myself and my brothers and sisters as a race, and even then I would still be wrong.
IMHO The very act of defineing a human beings racial status tells me someone is probelly planing on being RACIST. As it should be, except for medical reasons, irrelivant in a civilised modern nation.
We are all primarily individuals not members of goups, and so MUST be treated the same under the law, and by the state. Whatever colour, history, characteristics, age, sex, sexual habits, or language we have.
It could all have been so simple, but unfortuately socialism has screwed it up again.
State authoritarian socialism is the prime propergater and only benificiary of divisions between ordinary people. Divide and rule was one of Adolfs most refined and destructive tactics.
August 16, 2006 at 6:45 PM
Anonymous
said...
PMD
A little more research is required before you can state that Islam is a race.
Language - not shared History - not shared Characteristics - not shared
by all followers of Islam.
Then again maybe the Cambridge dictionary needs revision.
August 16, 2006 at 6:49 PM
Anonymous
said...
What did MPAC have to say when a number of their fellow Muslims marched through Central London carrying banners calling for other people they didn't like (non-Muslims) to be beheaded? Did they think that was a reasonable point of view? Or was that their "freedom of speech" which was being exercised?
August 16, 2006 at 7:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd - "...I think this means Islam is a race."
By the definition you quote Arsenal fans are also a race. Is it therefore racist to say "I hate Arsenal."?
August 16, 2006 at 7:03 PM
Anonymous
said...
Whatever you wanadoo - except write a blog that is...
Can we please stop blaming this on the left? It wasn't the left who made the complaint. I'm a leftie; I found the Leftie Lexicon pretty tedious and rather reactionary. I can even see that it could cause offence to thick people who don't understand "satire". But I defend *absolutely* the guy's right to say those things. My dad and his dad before him went to war to protect our freedoms and there's no way I'm going to allow those freedoms to be taken away. This is not a left/right thing.
August 16, 2006 at 7:18 PM
Anonymous
said...
I can say what I like about Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Sikhs etc. etc. etc.
I howere will get called racist for making comments about muslim scumbags who have little or not endearing features, and who are defended on this site too.
I can and will say what I like about muslim scumbags and it is not racist, because muslim is not a race.
I'm getting sick and tired of listening to this 'racist' or 'islamophobic' fucking shite incessantly; they are their own worst enemies and hopefully they will all disappear in the near future when the rest of humanity realises that we have been appeasing a religion stuck in the 6th century that needs to be buried.
August 16, 2006 at 7:45 PM
Anonymous
said...
Orange - French company - say no more. JD.
August 16, 2006 at 7:48 PM
Anonymous
said...
Inigo deserves what he gets. Hello? I just cannot believe he could be so foolish. PR is always PC.
August 16, 2006 at 8:33 PM
Anonymous
said...
Islam is not legally a race and therefore you cannot be racist against Islam or muslims. This is why the BNP attack Islam and not Asians or Pakistanis which is what they really mean.
Having read this it seems that this was not some sort of conspiracy to attack free speech but that muslims noticed this and were offended and told others how to complain if they were also offended. This is the opinion you will reach if you read the MPAC website and the people posting this seem to be new members rather than the MPAC leaders who dont seem to be involved in this yet.
The fact is Mr Wilson is a community affairs person who has offended large swathes of the community by being racist and islamophobic. Why do you have to turn this into a them and us polarised discussion? Why not stand up against racism and ask conservativehome and Mr Wilson to apologise. Noone wants to see a family man lose his job; noone wants to see racism in the conservative party either.
August 16, 2006 at 8:42 PM
Anonymous
said...
"a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc"
the cornish race. the newcastle race the scouser race the yorkshire race the cockney race
the catholic race the baptist race the free presbetyrian race
bit of a ridiculous definition, dont you think?
regarding the suspension of this man - well,he was working as PR rep for Orange - so it was a bit stupid to put his name to something political, even if it was a joke.
Orange are well within their rights , as a private company, to investigate this,and to take disciplinary action. A conflict of interest has clearly arisen.
Whatever your opinion of Inigo's article, his actions have caused Orange to lose a tranche of customer accounts from one side or the other.
By that act alone, they would be well within their rights to sack him.
August 16, 2006 at 9:34 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd: don't be silly.
a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc
right, so Indonesian Muslims are distinct from Pakistani Muslims are distinct from Kosovan Muslims are distinct from white people who have converted to Islam, is that it?
Being a Muslim is not a race issue, it is a religion issue. Now, whether you think religious groups should or should not have protections from being offended, insulted or even hated is up to you, but don't try and conflate the two, that helps no-one.
August 16, 2006 at 10:55 PM
Anonymous
said...
PMD if you think that your interpretation of Islam is backed up by the dictionary definition I suggest you think again. For instance:
Turkey, predominantly muslim speaks Turkish.
Iran, predominantly muslim speaks Farsi.
Pakistan, predominantly muslim speaks Urdu.
You would have a hard job selling the idea to a Turk that because of their religious affiliation that they`re the same race as a Pakistani or a Pakistani is the same race as an Arab for that matter.
"Islamaphobia is the irrational fear of Islam ...".
aka "we have the right to detonate as many bombs as possible on your public transport systems in order to prove to you that we are not irrational. Its just that being dhimmi you are acting in a completely unreasonable manner, as we expect from all non-Muslims."
August 17, 2006 at 8:22 AM
Anonymous
said...
"I hazard a guess that you haven't been on the end of this yourself and so it probably isn't your fault that you're a little bit ignorant of this."
Actually I have, people used to rip it out of me for being skinny at school. I didn't run off to the teacher crying but just insulted them back. In fact my friends and me still insult each other today (on a much wittier level).
"I think this means Islam is a race."
Do Muslims all speak the same language? Does an Indonesian Muslim have the same history as an Arab muslim? Interestingly it doesn't say "the same religion". Do you consider Christians a race?
August 17, 2006 at 9:40 AM
Anonymous
said...
Here's something else Inigo Wilson said a while back:
"Orange spokesman Inigo Wilson said: "There is no evidence of the adverse health effects of mobile phone masts. "If anything the most dangerous health effects come from using handsets rather than from living near masts."
Oh, that's okay then. Scarey, isn't he?
Whatever you may think of the issues - would any of you want to employ Inigo Wilson as a spokesperson if you were running a huge multinational organisation? Well, would you?
August 17, 2006 at 9:51 AM
Anonymous
said...
It also means Notts County fans are a race.
August 17, 2006 at 10:09 AM
Anonymous
said...
My apologies. I admit, my calling the anti-PC brigade 'wankers' was inconsistent, and came about because I was angry.
My ire is directed at posters like 2br02b above. Clearly, your motivation is that you want free reign to be able to slate Islam, not because you give a shit about protecting 'free speech'. You clearly believe that the muslim community at large is to blame for something, and wish to be free, not just legally but also in terms of the reaction of your peers, to level that claim. I see no worth in what you say at all, I think it is obnoxious, hateful, ignorant and dangerous.
You're not arguing about the point that his company fired him. You're arguing that it should be okay to make these sorts of jokes. The points are separate.
I made no reference in what I said to MCPAC, and my point was meant to address the wider issue, not this guy being sacked.
What I object to is the way that the PC/anti-PC argument is hijacked by people whose underlying wish is not to protect freedom of speech or any other noble motivation, but because really they object to it being socially unacceptable to be discriminatory. I'm not saying that anyone who is anti-PC has these motivations.
But I am suspicious of those who are the most vocal about it. I see very few real life and death problems caused by 'political correctness gone mad'. There are examples of people applying the principle in an overzealous way. Have a quick chuckle at them. But let's not pretend that being too PC is the biggest problem facing us.
Freedom of speech in this country is not at risk. This guy wasn't censored. He just got suspended for what he said.
On the other hand, history IS littered with examples of problems caused by a lack of political correctness.
Take this line: "Palestinians - archetype 'victims' no matter how many teenagers they murder in bars and fast food outlets. Never responsible for anything they do – or done in their name - because of 'root causes' or ‘legitimate grievances’."
I hate to be a killjoy. I like a joke the same as the rest of you, and I think that people should be able to laugh things off. But a) his joke isn't very funny and b) I don't think it was written with the intention that Palestinians would find it funny. In fact, I think it was written by someone who frankly couldn't give two shits whether a Palestinian would find it funny OR offensive, and that's the real issue here, isn't it.
I have family members who believe that 'political correctness has gone mad'. They read the Mail. They believe that the muslims are coming to get us. They vote Tory. There are many others out there with the same views, and there are parties out there willing to exploit what they know are racist tendancies within their electorate. They do so with slogans such as "Are you thinking what we're thinking?". Why can't you tell us what you're thinking? Come right out and say it.
Sorry for a long, very boring post. I think 'wankers' summed it up perfectly. But there we go...
August 17, 2006 at 10:51 AM
Anonymous
said...
I don't really see the problem here. He's in "Community Affairs", and yet has instantly proven himself to be unsuitable for the job. He shouldn't be jailed or fined - that would be political correctness gone mad - but I fail to see why Orange should employ a man who publicly offended a section of Orange's actual and potential client base.
If he'd made an article criticising Christians or Jews instead, they'd still be right to fire him. It's not really an Islam issue, it's an "don't make stupid comments about communities when it's your job to get them on-side" issue.
August 17, 2006 at 10:58 AM
Anonymous
said...
Sometime, charlieboy, when you have stopped spluttering , you should take a good look at thereal history and nature of political correctness.
Let's just point out one awkward but incontestable fact: it was invented by the Nazis. who called it Gleichschaltung : 'making equal', or 'co-ordination'. The goal was to oblige everybody to adhere to a specific political doctrine and way of thinking: in other words, political correctness.
Do you still think it's so wonderful... or are you a fascist without knowing it?
August 17, 2006 at 11:47 AM
Anonymous
said...
I agree with Charlieboy's stance on the much abused concept of 'political correctness'. All blue chip companies try and avoid causing offence. This is just the old 'customer is always right' adage wrapped up differently.
And I find it very amusing that dyed-in-the-wool right-wingers think that a commercial company should suddenly be told by the Government what to do.
What is a concern is that I may soon find that programmes like 'Time Trumpet' may soon be censored from Orange broadband due to their ability to cause offence.
My right-on stance may then look a little hypocritical & humourless..
August 17, 2006 at 12:21 PM
Anonymous
said...
If any of you do leave Orange whatever you do don't go to Vodafone, I used to work in their customer service department.
Having said that I use Vodafone and have never had a problem but that is only because I know how their customer service department works. It works best if you never call it!
August 17, 2006 at 12:27 PM
Anonymous
said...
In attempt to close the can of worms I have appeared to have opened...
The Cambridge definition is clearly flawed, but broadly does (in my opinion) apply to a "muslim" race. Although there are any number of languages spoken by muslims across the world, arabic dominates and is spoken by many. As Stephen T points out, there is a shared history, even if his definition of it is something many would not ascribe to. In terms of shared characteristics, I would point to shared religious beliefs which apply to Islamics from Dewsbury to Indonesia.
That said, I am not a theologist and totally accept that the definition has its flaws. But it is a good starting point.
And, to all of those who ridicule the idea that Muslims across the world share a common culture: if they are so diverse and heterogenous, why is it acceptable for Inigo Wilson to tar them all with the same brush?
Either they are all distinct and separate cultures (in which case his comments are open to being called offensive and are factually wrong) or they are all the same culture (in which case his comments are racist). You can't have it both ways.
No Longer Anonymous: What has your pubescent body weight got to do with anything?
(Apols Guido - I've seen your post on comments above, and hope this meets your criteria. Didn't mean to start WWIII)
August 17, 2006 at 1:22 PM
Anonymous
said...
*sigh* Inigo does not "tar them all with the same brush" like you suggest, rather he pokes fun at those who do. It is you who says that essentially they are all the same "from Dewsbury to Indonesia" that tries to mould them into one body, not him. Is it racist to criticise Christianity? On your definition it seems to be.
August 17, 2006 at 2:11 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd
still wrong. any shared culture they have is only the belief system. that is fair game, in an open, civic society. not racism. stop crying wolf.
August 17, 2006 at 2:12 PM
Anonymous
said...
If I were Inigo Wilson I'd tell my employer to shove the job where the sun doesn't shine. The whole thing sounds soul destroying enough withourt being told what you can and can't say in your own time!
On another note when I was a tory member people in "community relations" tended to vote for the yellow lot, funny how things change.
August 17, 2006 at 2:19 PM
Anonymous
said...
hannibal
If "Islamophobia" is fear of islam, then calling Islamophobes "anyone who objects to having their transport blown up on the way to work" infers that all muslims blow up public transport. Ergo "tarring them all with the same brush".
Anonymous 2.12 - why is there a distinction between culture and the belief system? Surely a belief system is inherent in any culture.
Any definition of culture is going to elicit a debate even more circular than the one on racism, so this is the last I'm going say:
If people persist in making generalisations like Inigo Wilson has, and many commenters here have defended, those people shouldn't be surprised when previously moderate muslims find themselves in an "us and them" situation and choose hardline islamists over perceived racists. Islamofascists thrive on this.
...and I'm spent.
August 17, 2006 at 3:36 PM
Anonymous
said...
"Didn't mean to start WWIII"
You're too late. Bush/Blair/Bin Laden have already started WWIII.
August 17, 2006 at 3:48 PM
Anonymous
said...
To those who are maligning MPAC and the person who called it "virulently racist in [its] views"- do you actually know ANYTHING about it?
From MPAC's website (look it up):
"MPACUK has been and still is forging links with the media to open an avenue for rational dialogue and re-education of the individual on the street regarding Islam and Muslims. The aim is make the all-too-common misrepresentation of Islam a thing of the past. .... MPACUK is aiming to politicise Muslims and encourage them to get to know their Members of Parliament, and to feel confident in raising issues with them .....
MPACUK are working with many organisations in an aim to break down barriers."
It seems MPAC are failing to get the message across to you, anyway.
Why the poor sod is being pilloried for a bit of brutal satire is beyond me.
Then again, I was raised to believe that being 'Left Wing' was believing in pluralism, free speech and tolerance, none of which seem to have been applied here.
No wonder Inigo (great name!) thinks the Left are twats. He has every reason to.
August 17, 2006 at 4:49 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd,
That's not short for 'prime minister deputy' is it? Of course! Complte with your signature garbled word-order!
That would explain your tortured nonsense, Jabba...
August 17, 2006 at 5:47 PM
Anonymous
said...
"to falsely polarise" ??. How can one trust a committee that so blatantly splits a poor defenceless infinitive. Is it condoned by Sharia law?
August 17, 2006 at 6:01 PM
Anonymous
said...
I think whatever you have said, is not as bad as what the president of Iran has said about elimination of israel. While nobody seems to have said anything to him. Are we having a dual standard here? Can you imagine if any leader from the western world said 'to eliminate iran'? I wouldn't mind hearing that....
August 17, 2006 at 6:35 PM
Anonymous
said...
"No Longer Anonymous: What has your pubescent body weight got to do with anything?"
You suggested I'd never been on the receving end of negative humour. I was just pointing out that I have. It might not have been racial or religious abuse but I've never seen why these are considered worse than any other abuse referring to physical or mental characteristics.
August 17, 2006 at 10:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
lambethlad said... Anyone know what 'Lundy' actually means ? I always thought it was a pleasant island off the Devon coast populated by puffins,9:30 PM
Lundy Island was actually once occupied by Muslim pirates and used as a base for their raids to snatch slaves throughout the South West of Englan.Giles Milton`s excellent book White Gold tells of the massive "white slave" trade in the 18th century,something seemingly erased from mainstream history,oddly as I`m sure in the current climate much un-founded fear and trepidation could be manufactured by spinning it.
August 17, 2006 at 10:37 PM
Anonymous
said...
This is an amazing story. Some more or less amusing jokes (I'm a leftie, I found some of the jokes not funny), but I thought the "islamophobe" one was very funny. It's like the Danish cartoons, some people can't take the truth.
But guess what, despite not liking some of the jokes, I'm not threatening to blow anyone up ...
If Muslims want their religion to be taken seriously, they need to stop suicide bombing. It's as simple as that. What part of "suicide bombing is wrong" do they not understand? I thought the recent letter threatening more bombings if British foreign policy (which I totally disagree with by the way) were not changed, was totally out of order. And, yes I'm aware all Muslims do not support these bombings, but the chorus of disapproval is hardly deafening is it? Millions of people around the world made their opposition to the Iraq war very plain over several months, when was their any vociferous "not in our name" over the bombings. I must have missed it. I blinked.
Sorry, but I'm remaining Anon on this, we don't have free speech any more.
August 17, 2006 at 11:17 PM
Anonymous
said...
"pmd", you are both illiterate and incapable of logical thought process or argument.
Firstly, please look up the word infer, it is most irritating when people misuse it.
Secondly, (leaving aside your misdefinition of Islamaphobe), Mr Wilson did not IMPLY anything about muslims. He satirically represented the way in which Leftists use the word Islamaphobe to shut down debate.
Lastly, if you are going to persist with your ludicrous argument that Islam is a race, then on behalf of the Lancastrian Agnostic Grammarian Race, you have caused great offence by your inability to think or express yourself clearly, and we demand that your employer dismiss you immediately.
August 18, 2006 at 9:15 AM
Anonymous
said...
Forget the 'cricket test' - anyone wishing to reside in this country should have to sit the 'English Humour Test' (and yes, I do mean English as distinct from other parts of the U.K.)
August 18, 2006 at 12:04 PM
Anonymous
said...
Anonymous said... Can you imagine if any leader from the western world said 'to eliminate iran'? I wouldn't mind hearing that....6:35 PM
No,because that would be honest and upfront and they dont do honest and upfront.
August 18, 2006 at 12:05 PM
Anonymous
said...
"to falsely polarise..." is a quote from the Middle-eastern version of Star Trek, isn't it?
"...to falsely polarise what no-one has polarised before" (as said by Captain Mohhamed T Mosque during the opening titles.)
August 18, 2006 at 12:16 PM
Anonymous
said...
pmd - Don't be so ready to believe apologists. Race is genetic. End of story. It has absolutely nothing to do with culture.
A Chinese American can be born of Chinese parents, grandparents, great grandparents all the way back, all born in America. He can think like an American, talk like an American, but his race is Mongoloid.
August 18, 2006 at 11:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
verity said... pmd - Don't be so ready to believe apologists. Race is genetic. End of story. It has absolutely nothing to do with culture. A Chinese American can be born of Chinese parents, grandparents, great grandparents all the way back, all born in America. He can think like an American, talk like an American, but his race is Mongoloid. 11:02 PM
Exactly verity,so we`re all African right?
August 19, 2006 at 8:51 PM
Anonymous
said...
The future might not be so bright now, certainly for the HR punter who suspended Inigo Wilson (shortly to be rich Inigo Wilson). Don'cha just love HR punters...
August 19, 2006 at 11:08 PM
Anonymous
said...
sent today, no reply forthcoming!!
"not a question, just a statement but couldn't find the CEO's e-mail address on your site, so please would you forward this onto him and cc me please. i would like to register my disapproval at suspending Inigo Wilson over the 'lefty lexicon' saga. i am a dedicated fence sitting liberal until freedom of speech is effected. by capitulating to a vocal minority over this issue you are submitting to Corporate terrorism, however i am about to resort to the same (hypocrit) if you sack this individual over his right to freedom of self expression i will close my accountswith you and urge all of my friends and aquaintances to do the same. please don't submit to the PC brigades terror style tactics. yours kindly"
August 21, 2006 at 3:32 PM
Anonymous
said...
I agree with what Mr Wilson wrote, I am disgusted at the pampering these muslims receive...as somebody commented earlier, tell 'em to f*&^ off or I will also leave Orange and join Vodafone...Free speech rules!!!
Mr Wilson should be commended on his courage to speak the truth!!!!
105 comments:
I don't really know what the chap said that was wrong....
I thought he was just saying what everyone else thinks...
Disgraceful! Unless this man is reinstated immediately, I shall refuse to renew my Orange contract. Like the MPAC loons, I now hate Orange as well.
It would have made better business sense to keep him on, that way only one set of individuals would have been offended.
Islamofascism strikes back.
This is of course the first stage in instituting an overall policy of censorship, whereby the muslim world has first bite at whatever story is being published and will demand a spin more favourable to them.
The Americans would treat this as an attack on free speech and the freedom of the press.
More to the point if Inigo Wilson undertook the article in a private capacity it is an unwarranted intrusion into the private life of an individual.
Chakrabarty and Liberty should defend Wilson's right to free speech.
He can add a new word to his lexicon: dooced.
Go to the lexicon and read the last few comments below it.
Then cry.
According to a comment left on Conservative Home, someone received an e-mail from Orange stating that they have suspended this fella "subject to investigation"
I really hope this is not true. This whole thing leaves an extremely nasty taste in my mouth.
This complaint does even make sense:
(1) It's a joke piece, implying that Wilson doesn't actually believe that islamophobe means that.
(2) Even if it weren't a joke piece, Wilson is saying that this is how the left defines islamophobia, not himself.
Not to say that a reasonable complaint about the piece couldn't be made, on the grounds of insensitivity or somesuch, but the reasons given in the letter are nonsense.
So the question for Orange now is are there more Tories who value speech in the UK than there are vaguely militant Islamists who can't take a joke (albeit an ill-advised one)?
So much for freedom of speech! I read that article on ConservativeHome (from a link on Iain Dale, I think. I really liked it. Can't the Muslims accept the British sense of humour?
Though, having said that, the anti-anti-muslim police are probably on their way round to arrest me for using my right to free speech.
If this be true, His Grace will be kicking up a bit of a stink.
At the very least, he will closing his Orange account, and publicing the reason in the pulpit on Sunday. Confirmation asap, please.
+Cranmer
Orange won't miss him, surely. Speaking to the "Bracknell News" Orange spokesman Inigo Wilson said:
"There is no evidence of the adverse health effects of mobile phone masts. If anything the most dangerous health effects come from using handsets rather than from living near masts."
With employees like that, who needs enemies?
http://icberkshire.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200berkshireheadlines/content_objectid=13109673_method=full_siteid=50102_headline=-Phone-mast--a-health-risk--name_page.html
Speaking as a libertarian I have no objection to companies firing people on whatever grounds they want.
That doesn't, however, change the fact that the grounds here are extremely lame and that both Orange and MPAC need to chill out and learn how to have a laugh.
I've heard of 'em choking on Orange, but suspended by one seems erm, novel.
Hmm - that wasn't too clever now was it?
Just goes to show we should all be 100% in favour of free speech - no matter how offensive. Makes it much easier to judge others!
Advice to Orange.
Tell them to fuck off and switch to Vodaphone. Sack this man and my account moves from Orange to Vodaphone.
Good grief, here we go again...were they REALLY offended by this or is this just another opportunity for someone to create mischief?
The boys in the Muslim Political Action Committee need to get a life and go out a bit more.
Inigio's comments may have been hilarious/funny/mildly amusing/ not in the slightest bit funny / downright offensive depending on your view.
The Committee's response however, is another example of how certain people seem to demand the right not be offended.
Having read the letter to Orange, there are imho a number of statements that show deeply flawed logic (e.g I do not understand how the committee can justify the claim that
"this comment is clearly trying to falsely polarise the problem of Islamist terrorism by saying that all muslims are terrorists").
To write in this way to Orange demanding Inigo's head on a plate (joke) shows the cultural chasm between self appointed Political Action Committees and, I suspect, the majority of the remaining population.
This would be the same MPAC which on its website says that 'Lord Kalms supports the massacre of children'.
Militant lobby group supporting religio-ethnic minority. Just what these guys criticise on the Capitol. And no sense of the mot juste. Another case of failed UK integration policies in that quarter methinks. Break out the comedy classics at the airports.
Presumably being 'community affairs spokesman' involves some element of buttering up Muslims etc.
That being so, it was pretty daft of Inigo to commit his feeble jokes to print/pixels. One way or another, it suggests he's probably not very good at his job.
Had he been the bloke who fixes the masts or sells you airtime contracts in the high street, there probably wouldn't be all this fuss.
If I was a Community PR man for Vodafone and had written a poorly drafted joke definition against judaism ("antisemite: one who disagrees with a jew"), I would not be surprised to get the sack.
If the guy was a call centre worker, then fair enough. But he is employed to improve the image of his company among the community. There can't be many more high profile communities in the UK at the moment than the Islamic one. He's therefore shafted his company and probably committed gross misconduct into the bargain.
He's got nothing to whinge about - and neither have you lot.
and the reason for giving MPAC publicity is ....?
Yet another attack on freedom from an Islamist group. Quite what Inigos commenst have to do with his employment at Orange is beyond me. Nowhere in the artice does Inigo mention Orange, it is referred to in the comments beneath. So someone has searched for his employment in order to complain to his employer. Well I work for a large investment bank. MCPAC UK - why not complain to them about this post. Make my day.
Does this mean that if any of us make a comment on the web that MCPAC UK or other Islamist groups dislike they will complain to our employers and (they hope) get us fired or at the very least repress our free speech through such an implict threat. This is a brutal supression of freedom of speech akin to 1930's Germany where if I say something you dislike you can damage me and my family by destroying my career and removing my source of income. Another small step to the Islamisiation of Britain
Ha! He baited, they bit, and now he's in trouble. Deserves everything he gets.
While we're on the subject, I hope everyone else will join me in saying bollocks to all you anti-political-correctness wankers. Yep, that's right, it's just not cool to be racist. Not even a little bit.
Hide behind your 'political correctness has turned the world mad' rubbish if you like, I quite like the fact that people are nice to each other.
Sorry for the rant. They just really fuck me off.
PS On rereading the complaints letter I wonder if it isn't libellous, since the original article clearly did not have the intent these bozos claim.
One for some crusading lawyers (poor choice of words I know).
To ensure parity of offence the lexicon should have included:
Anti-Semintism - Inability to sympathise with theft of land and property, and imprisonment without trial.
Israelis - people who believe carpet bombing is an appropriate response to a border skirmish.
charlieboy - spot on
Personally, I love all IslamoFascists and cannot wait for the day when Sharia Law is the way of life here in Britain. Hopefully George Galloway will be the leader of the British Islamic Republic and we can all just have such a wonderful fukking life it makes me puke with excitement thinking about it...oh please please please can we all please do it the Osama way....of course, this blog would no longer exist because such freedom of thought & speech would be banned...and of course my gay friends would be executed...bit of a shame, I'll definitely miss them...and of course that chick who performed "shakuhatchi" on me at the club last night would no doubt be stoned to death...but at least that'd save me from having to call her again..Anyway, small sacrifices really cos other than that Sharia Law is so totally awesome. Can't believe any one of you lot can even possibly say the slightest negative thing about it....and this geezer who's been suspended should be stoned for saying such vile despicable things....
Whoa...huh?...sorry...seem to have gone thru some kind of brain spasm there...where am I? what the?
According to the Police website, a "Racist Incident (is) Any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."
Well, I percieve that Islamists who complain about the free speech we enjoy in this (our) country are creating a Racist Incident. I wonder if the Police will investigate THAT????
The Muslim Political Action Committee are tossers, everytime something like this happens I bet the BNP can't print off application forms quick enough.
A couple of things he missed.
'Community Affairs spokesman' - a complete idiot who is clearly unemployable in any real job.
MCPAC spokesman - a complete idiot who is clearly unemployable in any real job.
Thought police now in residence on all blogs.
Got a joke, an opinion or even a thought that includes the word Islam, forget it.
British sense of humour is now banned. RIP.
Reality Check:
Indigo is Orange’s “community affairs manager” and his remarks have caused deep offence; no wonder Orange have suspended him pending an investigation.
Maybe those Spanish train bombers were Orange customers ? Probably "pay as you go".
Sorry. I've missed the story here.
Man affects 'jokey' racism, implicates his employer and is suspended. End of, surely?
And yes, racism can be funny sometimes, but a PR who drops his employer in it to this extent is a liability.
Some Muslims are touchy, but surely an 'anarco-capitalist' such as yourself can't be upset if a private company chooses to hire and fire who they please in pursuit of profit?
Perhaps some state intervention needed, eh?
Charlieboy..thanks for your comments, but you don't seem very nice (even though you claim to prefer that) in your comments calling people like me who hate PC nonsense a wanker but thats by the by. Inigo wasn't racist..I abhor racism but Islamist organisations like MCPAC and spokesmen like Idiot Bungle are virulently racist in their islamist views, or hadn't you noticed? Perhaps you didn't notice that Idiot (MCPAC's spokesidiot) allegedly recently threatened to slit a right wing bloggers throat (or a PC in Reuters (where Idiot works) around the same time as Idiot was reading LGF in Reuters sent such an email to LGF)? I don't think Inigo has it coming, unfotunately it's we who have it coming if MCPAC and it's ilk get their way.
"While we're on the subject, I hope everyone else will join me in saying bollocks to all you anti-political-correctness wankers. Yep, that's right, it's just not cool to be racist. Not even a little bit."
Since when was Islam a race?
And has it not occurred to you that he was simply joking? Is everyone who makes a "there was an Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman" joke a closet racist?
Don't you think it's healthy for people to be able to laugh at themselves and each other?
MPAC do not represent all muslims, they are a extremist group, who I would hope that a company with any back-bone at all would ignore. Although I'm sure Guido and Inigo would disagree with the policy, an indication of how extremist they are is that they are a group who has been no-platformed alongside the BNP by the NUS.
"Perhaps some state intervention needed, eh?"
Where has Guido said that? Libertarians prefer boycotts and consumer pressure. That seems to be what Guido is encouraging.
Yep, that's right, it's just not cool to be racist. Not even a little bit.
Absolutely.
But Islam is not a race, it's a set of beliefs.
So your point is...?
----
And in any case, in the present situation only Muslims are trying to blow up aircraft by suicide bombing, etc. Far from all Muslins, for sure. But only Muslims are trying to do this.
On that basis, islamophobia is in fact entirely rational and reasonable. If Muslims object to being catagorised like this, they have only themselves, as a 'community', to blame.
If they want islamophobia to end, then they must themselves , as a 'community', find a way to end it.
From another holy book, one Muslims would read: "Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?"
Sorry if this is not very amusing, Guido. But this matter goes to the very heart of whether or not we are going to allowed to be amusing in the future. And other things.
Charlieboy@4:39
In your PC world it's OK for you to call people you don't like "wankers", but presumably it's not OK if I call Islamofascist head-hackers, Guardian readers, etc "wankers"?
Bloody thickie lefties and their inconsistent double-standards, eh?
MPACUK are going all out to get this chap.
See:
http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?p=170262#post170262
Spread the word, too. Get everyone you know who is on Orange to write to them stating that you will take your custom elsewhere if they DO sack him.
since when was Islam a race?
well said that man.
Offensive or not, Orange should fire this bloke for being a bloody idiot. Has he not realised that if you want to say that sort of thing, you do it anonymously and certainly don't link it, even tenuously, with your employer?
no longer anonymous
Just because he was attempting to make a joke, doesn't make Inigo Wilson's comments any more offensive, nor Orange's actions any more surprising.
To a certain extent, yes, Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman jokes *are* offensive - I am Irish and I am sometimes (albeit very rarely) offended by them - and only then when the jokes are shite.
However rarely this occurs, it is even rarer that I comment, because nothing is worse than appearing not to be able to take a joke.
I hazard a guess that you haven't been on the end of this yourself and so it probably isn't your fault that you're a little bit ignorant of this.
But this is off the subject: Guido's posts seem to be concerned with Orange's treatment of their employee. That would be the community relations manager who's just labelled an entire community as train bombers. And people are surprised he has been fired? I fail to see the issue.
For all you lot frothing at the mouth, it is emphatically *not* an issue of free speech. Inigo Wilson is free to say whatever he wants - as he has done.
He just shouldn't be surprised if that lands him with a P45 because his speech is at odds with the interests of the company by whom he is employed.
Islamophobia is defined by MPAC as an irrational fear of Islam. How then are we to define those fearing Islam for entirely rational reasons?
I feel for Mr Wilson and wish him luck in retaining his job following Orange's investigations. Hopefully if Orange do conclude Mr Wilson is fit to remain in their employ he will then wait a short length of time before handing in his notice and taking a new job with an employer less inclined to bow to pressure from such a small and politicised group of people.
Looking at Mr Wilson's article, much of seems bang on the money to me - I particularly like "issues around" and "inappropriate" - two scourges of modern life.
However, whilst I do not think Mr Wilson is guilty of the very serious charges of racialism and Islamophobia that are being levelled I do think he and Conservative Home have been a little unwise - the definition of Palestinians does go too far and could be construed as suggesting that all Palestinians have a tendency towards murdering teenagers. (The definition of Islamophobia seems to me to be far less contentious in that its target seems far more clearly to be the alleged tendency of the left to see bigotry where none exists rather than any alleged tendency of Muslims towards bombings.)
And whilst it was true that the article made no mention of Orange, I do not see why it was necessary to mention Mr Wilson's employment at all in the preface to the article - it will weaken his case that he was writing in an entirely private capacity which will surely be the keystone of any defence of his behaviour that he is required to present to Orange.
Anyway, a cautionary tale for us all that we have to be very careful nowadays when discussing political views in open fora on the web particularly if those views are uncompromising as regards some of the more controversial issues of the age. Once again, I am reminded why I nearly always post anonymously on this and other websites despite the trenchant views of e.g. Mr Fawkes against such lily-liveredness.
For all those splitting hairs over the semantics of whether anti-islamic comments are racist or not, The Cambridge Dictionary defines race as:
"a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc"
(http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=65069&dict=CALD)
I think this means Islam is a race.
The future was Orange. Now it will be some other mobile service provider.
Graybo - Inigo has every right to freedom of expression under his own name. although I guess that with a name like his it wouldn't take long to find him. It's pretty sad though if we have to use an pseudonym any time we risk upsetting anybody however over-sensistive.
His critics are proving his point for him - his article was all about the way the left uses language as a tool of thought control to promote its own world view & shut down debate. He makes it clear elsewhere that he completely disapproves of stereotyping people by gender, race or class.
pmd,
If 'race' is defined as "a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc", then Islam is most emphatically NOT a race.
It is absolutely obvious that all Muslims do NOT share the same language, or the same history, or the same characteristics.
QUED
You are talking twaddle.
pmd, why? Do Somali Muslims share language, history and characteristics with Iranian ones?
@pmd You idiot. Muslims the world over speak an array of languages, have many different histories and characteristics, and are as varied as Christians. Islam is no more a race than Christianity or Buddhism. Does taking the piss out of Richard Gere for his mountain meditations count as racism?
pmd said..."I think this means Islam is a race."
Like Mormonism, then? And exactly what "race" is a white Scotsman who converts?
He wants a position in the Conservative Party. He must have known thta his comments would get him into trouble with Orange. He must also have known that this would gain him a lot of publicity.
pmd 5:46
It seems the law is something at odds with your dictionary. Currently the only religious groups that are defined as races are Jews and Sikhs, on the basis that they are predominantly non-aquisitive religions - ie you generally have to be born one to be one. Christianity and Islam are 'just' beliefs and therefore not covered by race law - hence the recent attempt to get the religious intolerance/heresy law passed.
Speaking as an antitheist, I resent strongly any attempt to gag me in criticism of any religion. This doesn't mean that I think Orange are wrong to suspend and subsequently discipline Inigo Wilson, who seems to have had a fit of poor judgement as a 'community affairs manager'. However, it would be interesting to see if their reaction would have been the same if he was in a backroom job.
For the rest of you contemplating switching phone accounts, he only reason you need to leave Orange is that they are owned by the French.
Yeah, I'd have sacked him too Guido. For being so unfunny and a big wally. Hardly what you need for PR...I hope the Tories dont employ him to do theirs...
pmd
In my book it most certainly does not. All muslims do not share the 3 things you mention. So Islam is not a race by your definition.
However that definition must be crazy anyway, written by Oxford University loonies or not. Under it I could only possibly describe myself and my brothers and sisters as a race, and even then I would still be wrong.
IMHO The very act of defineing a human beings racial status tells me someone is probelly planing on being RACIST. As it should be, except for medical reasons, irrelivant in a civilised modern nation.
We are all primarily individuals not members of goups, and so MUST be treated the same under the law, and by the state. Whatever colour, history, characteristics, age, sex, sexual habits, or language we have.
It could all have been so simple, but unfortuately socialism has screwed it up again.
State authoritarian socialism is the prime propergater and only benificiary of divisions between ordinary people. Divide and rule was one of Adolfs most refined and destructive tactics.
PMD
A little more research is required before you can state that Islam is a race.
Language - not shared
History - not shared
Characteristics - not shared
by all followers of Islam.
Then again maybe the Cambridge dictionary needs revision.
What did MPAC have to say when a number of their fellow Muslims marched through Central London carrying banners calling for other people they didn't like (non-Muslims) to be beheaded? Did they think that was a reasonable point of view? Or was that their "freedom of speech" which was being exercised?
pmd - "...I think this means Islam is a race."
By the definition you quote Arsenal fans are also a race. Is it therefore racist to say "I hate Arsenal."?
Whatever you wanadoo - except write a blog that is...
Can we please stop blaming this on the left? It wasn't the left who made the complaint. I'm a leftie; I found the Leftie Lexicon pretty tedious and rather reactionary. I can even see that it could cause offence to thick people who don't understand "satire". But I defend *absolutely* the guy's right to say those things. My dad and his dad before him went to war to protect our freedoms and there's no way I'm going to allow those freedoms to be taken away. This is not a left/right thing.
I can say what I like about Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Sikhs etc. etc. etc.
I howere will get called racist for making comments about muslim scumbags who have little or not endearing features, and who are defended on this site too.
I can and will say what I like about muslim scumbags and it is not racist, because muslim is not a race.
I'm getting sick and tired of listening to this 'racist' or 'islamophobic' fucking shite incessantly; they are their own worst enemies and hopefully they will all disappear in the near future when the rest of humanity realises that we have been appeasing a religion stuck in the 6th century that needs to be buried.
Orange - French company - say no more. JD.
Inigo deserves what he gets. Hello? I just cannot believe he could be so foolish. PR is always PC.
Islam is not legally a race and therefore you cannot be racist against Islam or muslims. This is why the BNP attack Islam and not Asians or Pakistanis which is what they really mean.
Having read this it seems that this was not some sort of conspiracy to attack free speech but that muslims noticed this and were offended and told others how to complain if they were also offended. This is the opinion you will reach if you read the MPAC website and the people posting this seem to be new members rather than the MPAC leaders who dont seem to be involved in this yet.
The fact is Mr Wilson is a community affairs person who has offended large swathes of the community by being racist and islamophobic. Why do you have to turn this into a them and us polarised discussion? Why not stand up against racism and ask conservativehome and Mr Wilson to apologise. Noone wants to see a family man lose his job; noone wants to see racism in the conservative party either.
"a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc"
the cornish race.
the newcastle race
the scouser race
the yorkshire race
the cockney race
the catholic race
the baptist race
the free presbetyrian race
bit of a ridiculous definition, dont you think?
regarding the suspension of this man - well,he was working as PR rep for Orange - so it was a bit stupid to put his name to something political, even if it was a joke.
Orange are well within their rights , as a private company, to investigate this,and to take disciplinary action. A conflict of interest has clearly arisen.
The guy has got talent. Wasted working for Orange.
Whatever your opinion of Inigo's article, his actions have caused Orange to lose a tranche of customer accounts from one side or the other.
By that act alone, they would be well within their rights to sack him.
pmd: don't be silly.
a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc
right, so Indonesian Muslims are distinct from Pakistani Muslims are distinct from Kosovan Muslims are distinct from white people who have converted to Islam, is that it?
Being a Muslim is not a race issue, it is a religion issue. Now, whether you think religious groups should or should not have protections from being offended, insulted or even hated is up to you, but don't try and conflate the two, that helps no-one.
PMD if you think that your interpretation of Islam is backed up by the dictionary definition I suggest you think again. For instance:
Turkey, predominantly muslim speaks Turkish.
Iran, predominantly muslim speaks Farsi.
Pakistan, predominantly muslim speaks Urdu.
You would have a hard job selling the idea to a Turk that because of their religious affiliation that they`re the same race as a Pakistani or a Pakistani is the same race as an Arab for that matter.
nice one Orange - Inigo? More like Out Ye Go!
It's PC gawn mad I tells ya!
LOL :-D
Worth looking around the MPAC forums.
What a buch of fucking crazies!
"Islamaphobia is the irrational fear of Islam ...".
aka "we have the right to detonate as many bombs as possible on your public transport systems in order to prove to you that we are not irrational. Its just that being dhimmi you are acting in a completely unreasonable manner, as we expect from all non-Muslims."
"I hazard a guess that you haven't been on the end of this yourself and so it probably isn't your fault that you're a little bit ignorant of this."
Actually I have, people used to rip it out of me for being skinny at school. I didn't run off to the teacher crying but just insulted them back. In fact my friends and me still insult each other today (on a much wittier level).
"I think this means Islam is a race."
Do Muslims all speak the same language? Does an Indonesian Muslim have the same history as an Arab muslim? Interestingly it doesn't say "the same religion". Do you consider Christians a race?
Here's something else Inigo Wilson said a while back:
"Orange spokesman Inigo Wilson said: "There is no evidence of the adverse health effects of mobile phone masts. "If anything the most dangerous health effects come from using handsets rather than from living near masts."
Oh, that's okay then. Scarey, isn't he?
Whatever you may think of the issues - would any of you want to employ Inigo Wilson as a spokesperson if you were running a huge multinational organisation? Well, would you?
It also means Notts County fans are a race.
My apologies. I admit, my calling the anti-PC brigade 'wankers' was inconsistent, and came about because I was angry.
My ire is directed at posters like 2br02b above. Clearly, your motivation is that you want free reign to be able to slate Islam, not because you give a shit about protecting 'free speech'. You clearly believe that the muslim community at large is to blame for something, and wish to be free, not just legally but also in terms of the reaction of your peers, to level that claim. I see no worth in what you say at all, I think it is obnoxious, hateful, ignorant and dangerous.
You're not arguing about the point that his company fired him. You're arguing that it should be okay to make these sorts of jokes. The points are separate.
I made no reference in what I said to MCPAC, and my point was meant to address the wider issue, not this guy being sacked.
What I object to is the way that the PC/anti-PC argument is hijacked by people whose underlying wish is not to protect freedom of speech or any other noble motivation, but because really they object to it being socially unacceptable to be discriminatory. I'm not saying that anyone who is anti-PC has these motivations.
But I am suspicious of those who are the most vocal about it. I see very few real life and death problems caused by 'political correctness gone mad'. There are examples of people applying the principle in an overzealous way. Have a quick chuckle at them. But let's not pretend that being too PC is the biggest problem facing us.
Freedom of speech in this country is not at risk. This guy wasn't censored. He just got suspended for what he said.
On the other hand, history IS littered with examples of problems caused by a lack of political correctness.
Take this line: "Palestinians - archetype 'victims' no matter how many teenagers they murder in bars and fast food outlets. Never responsible for anything they do – or done in their name - because of 'root causes' or ‘legitimate grievances’."
I hate to be a killjoy. I like a joke the same as the rest of you, and I think that people should be able to laugh things off. But a) his joke isn't very funny and b) I don't think it was written with the intention that Palestinians would find it funny. In fact, I think it was written by someone who frankly couldn't give two shits whether a Palestinian would find it funny OR offensive, and that's the real issue here, isn't it.
I have family members who believe that 'political correctness has gone mad'. They read the Mail. They believe that the muslims are coming to get us. They vote Tory. There are many others out there with the same views, and there are parties out there willing to exploit what they know are racist tendancies within their electorate. They do so with slogans such as "Are you thinking what we're thinking?". Why can't you tell us what you're thinking? Come right out and say it.
Sorry for a long, very boring post. I think 'wankers' summed it up perfectly. But there we go...
I don't really see the problem here. He's in "Community Affairs", and yet has instantly proven himself to be unsuitable for the job. He shouldn't be jailed or fined - that would be political correctness gone mad - but I fail to see why Orange should employ a man who publicly offended a section of Orange's actual and potential client base.
If he'd made an article criticising Christians or Jews instead, they'd still be right to fire him. It's not really an Islam issue, it's an "don't make stupid comments about communities when it's your job to get them on-side" issue.
Sometime, charlieboy, when you have stopped spluttering , you should take a good look at thereal history and nature of political correctness.
Let's just point out one awkward but incontestable fact: it was invented by the Nazis. who called it Gleichschaltung : 'making equal', or 'co-ordination'. The goal was to oblige everybody to adhere to a specific political doctrine and way of thinking: in other words, political correctness.
Do you still think it's so wonderful... or are you a fascist without knowing it?
I agree with Charlieboy's stance on the much abused concept of 'political correctness'. All blue chip companies try and avoid causing offence. This is just the old 'customer is always right' adage wrapped up differently.
And I find it very amusing that dyed-in-the-wool right-wingers think that a commercial company should suddenly be told by the Government what to do.
What is a concern is that I may soon find that programmes like 'Time Trumpet' may soon be censored from Orange broadband due to their ability to cause offence.
My right-on stance may then look a little hypocritical & humourless..
If any of you do leave Orange whatever you do don't go to Vodafone, I used to work in their customer service department.
Having said that I use Vodafone and have never had a problem but that is only because I know how their customer service department works. It works best if you never call it!
In attempt to close the can of worms I have appeared to have opened...
The Cambridge definition is clearly flawed, but broadly does (in my opinion) apply to a "muslim" race. Although there are any number of languages spoken by muslims across the world, arabic dominates and is spoken by many. As Stephen T points out, there is a shared history, even if his definition of it is something many would not ascribe to. In terms of shared characteristics, I would point to shared religious beliefs which apply to Islamics from Dewsbury to Indonesia.
That said, I am not a theologist and totally accept that the definition has its flaws. But it is a good starting point.
And, to all of those who ridicule the idea that Muslims across the world share a common culture: if they are so diverse and heterogenous, why is it acceptable for Inigo Wilson to tar them all with the same brush?
Either they are all distinct and separate cultures (in which case his comments are open to being called offensive and are factually wrong) or they are all the same culture (in which case his comments are racist). You can't have it both ways.
No Longer Anonymous: What has your pubescent body weight got to do with anything?
(Apols Guido - I've seen your post on comments above, and hope this meets your criteria. Didn't mean to start WWIII)
*sigh* Inigo does not "tar them all with the same brush" like you suggest, rather he pokes fun at those who do. It is you who says that essentially they are all the same "from Dewsbury to Indonesia" that tries to mould them into one body, not him. Is it racist to criticise Christianity? On your definition it seems to be.
pmd
still wrong.
any shared culture they have is only the belief system.
that is fair game, in an open, civic society.
not racism.
stop crying wolf.
If I were Inigo Wilson I'd tell my employer to shove the job where the sun doesn't shine. The whole thing sounds soul destroying enough withourt being told what you can and can't say in your own time!
On another note when I was a tory member people in "community relations" tended to vote for the yellow lot, funny how things change.
hannibal
If "Islamophobia" is fear of islam, then calling Islamophobes "anyone who objects to having their transport blown up on the way to work" infers that all muslims blow up public transport. Ergo "tarring them all with the same brush".
Anonymous 2.12 - why is there a distinction between culture and the belief system? Surely a belief system is inherent in any culture.
Any definition of culture is going to elicit a debate even more circular than the one on racism, so this is the last I'm going say:
If people persist in making generalisations like Inigo Wilson has, and many commenters here have defended, those people shouldn't be surprised when previously moderate muslims find themselves in an "us and them" situation and choose hardline islamists over perceived racists. Islamofascists thrive on this.
...and I'm spent.
"Didn't mean to start WWIII"
You're too late. Bush/Blair/Bin Laden have already started WWIII.
To those who are maligning MPAC and the person who called it "virulently racist in [its] views"- do you actually know ANYTHING about it?
From MPAC's website (look it up):
"MPACUK has been and still is forging links with the media to open an avenue for rational dialogue and re-education of the individual on the street regarding Islam and Muslims. The aim is make the all-too-common misrepresentation of Islam a thing of the past.
....
MPACUK is aiming to politicise Muslims and encourage them to get to know their Members of Parliament, and to feel confident in raising issues with them
.....
MPACUK are working with many organisations in an aim to break down barriers."
It seems MPAC are failing to get the message across to you, anyway.
pmd: ITYM "imply"
Why the poor sod is being pilloried for a bit of brutal satire is beyond me.
Then again, I was raised to believe that being 'Left Wing' was believing in pluralism, free speech and tolerance, none of which seem to have been applied here.
No wonder Inigo (great name!) thinks the Left are twats. He has every reason to.
pmd,
That's not short for 'prime minister deputy' is it? Of course! Complte with your signature garbled word-order!
That would explain your tortured nonsense, Jabba...
"to falsely polarise" ??. How can one trust a committee that so blatantly splits a poor defenceless infinitive. Is it condoned by Sharia law?
I think whatever you have said, is not as bad as what the president of Iran has said about elimination of israel. While nobody seems to have said anything to him. Are we having a dual standard here? Can you imagine if any leader from the western world said 'to eliminate iran'? I wouldn't mind hearing that....
"No Longer Anonymous: What has your pubescent body weight got to do with anything?"
You suggested I'd never been on the receving end of negative humour. I was just pointing out that I have. It might not have been racial or religious abuse but I've never seen why these are considered worse than any other abuse referring to physical or mental characteristics.
lambethlad said...
Anyone know what 'Lundy' actually means ? I always thought it was a pleasant island off the Devon coast populated by puffins,9:30 PM
Lundy Island was actually once occupied by Muslim pirates and used as a base for their raids to snatch slaves throughout the South West of Englan.Giles Milton`s excellent book White Gold tells of the massive "white slave" trade in the 18th century,something seemingly erased from mainstream history,oddly as I`m sure in the current climate much un-founded fear and trepidation could be manufactured by spinning it.
This is an amazing story. Some more or less amusing jokes (I'm a leftie, I found some of the jokes not funny), but I thought the "islamophobe" one was very funny. It's like the Danish cartoons, some people can't take the truth.
But guess what, despite not liking some of the jokes, I'm not threatening to blow anyone up ...
If Muslims want their religion to be taken seriously, they need to stop suicide bombing. It's as simple as that. What part of "suicide bombing is wrong" do they not understand? I thought the recent letter threatening more bombings if British foreign policy (which I totally disagree with by the way) were not changed, was totally out of order.
And, yes I'm aware all Muslims do not support these bombings, but the chorus of disapproval is hardly deafening is it? Millions of people around the world made their opposition to the Iraq war very plain over several months, when was their any vociferous "not in our name" over the bombings. I must have missed it. I blinked.
Sorry, but I'm remaining Anon on this, we don't have free speech any more.
"pmd", you are both illiterate and incapable of logical thought process or argument.
Firstly, please look up the word infer, it is most irritating when people misuse it.
Secondly, (leaving aside your misdefinition of Islamaphobe), Mr Wilson did not IMPLY anything about muslims. He satirically represented the way in which Leftists use the word Islamaphobe to shut down debate.
Lastly, if you are going to persist with your ludicrous argument that Islam is a race, then on behalf of the Lancastrian Agnostic Grammarian Race, you have caused great offence by your inability to think or express yourself clearly, and we demand that your employer dismiss you immediately.
Forget the 'cricket test' - anyone wishing to reside in this country should have to sit the 'English Humour Test' (and yes, I do mean English as distinct from other parts of the U.K.)
Anonymous said...
Can you imagine if any leader from the western world said 'to eliminate iran'? I wouldn't mind hearing that....6:35 PM
No,because that would be honest and upfront and they dont do honest and upfront.
"to falsely polarise..." is a quote from the Middle-eastern version of Star Trek, isn't it?
"...to falsely polarise what no-one has polarised before" (as said by Captain Mohhamed T Mosque during the opening titles.)
pmd - Don't be so ready to believe apologists. Race is genetic. End of story. It has absolutely nothing to do with culture.
A Chinese American can be born of Chinese parents, grandparents, great grandparents all the way back, all born in America. He can think like an American, talk like an American, but his race is Mongoloid.
verity said...
pmd - Don't be so ready to believe apologists. Race is genetic. End of story. It has absolutely nothing to do with culture.
A Chinese American can be born of Chinese parents, grandparents, great grandparents all the way back, all born in America. He can think like an American, talk like an American, but his race is Mongoloid.
11:02 PM
Exactly verity,so we`re all African right?
The future might not be so bright now, certainly for the HR punter who suspended Inigo Wilson (shortly to be rich Inigo Wilson). Don'cha just love HR punters...
sent today, no reply forthcoming!!
"not a question, just a statement but couldn't find the CEO's e-mail
address on your site, so please would you forward this onto him and cc
me please. i would like to register my disapproval at suspending Inigo
Wilson over the 'lefty lexicon' saga. i am a dedicated fence sitting
liberal until freedom of speech is effected. by capitulating to a vocal
minority over this issue you are submitting to Corporate terrorism,
however i am about to resort to the same (hypocrit) if you sack this
individual over his right to freedom of self expression i will close my
accountswith you and urge all of my friends and aquaintances to do the
same. please don't submit to the PC brigades terror style tactics. yours
kindly"
I agree with what Mr Wilson wrote, I am disgusted at the pampering these muslims receive...as somebody commented earlier, tell 'em to f*&^ off or I will also leave Orange and join Vodafone...Free speech rules!!!
Mr Wilson should be commended on his courage to speak the truth!!!!