The Register are also reporting this as their "option 1". "Option 2" is that the reason for the yanks being apparently underwhelmed is that "...a few planes blowing up over the Atlantic is small potatoes." Until somebody shows me a flask of nitro-glycerine, my money is on option 1.
August 11, 2006 at 10:41 AM
Anonymous
said...
See Guido at work - http://tinyurl.co.uk/td54
August 11, 2006 at 10:50 AM
Anonymous
said...
Oh my gawd, Guido... I... I... I... I am speechless, I didn't think you would be in the same camp as me on this.
Can I add:
After Dr Reids speech demanding our freedoms this was very timely wasnt it?
Whose listening to those two formerly loyal Blairites do a hatchet job on dear leader now?
The real question is though, what do we do?
August 11, 2006 at 10:52 AM
Anonymous
said...
Runaway J. That means you are a conspiracy theorist. That's what a conspiracy theorist is. Someone who mistakes paranoid delusion (apologies Guido) for plausible argument.
The media are desperate for stories, including the new fangled media, it seems...
August 11, 2006 at 10:53 AM
Anonymous
said...
You’re right to be concerned Guido. I’ve found that this product has proved vital to me at this difficult and confusing time:
I point you in the direction of a post on Mr. Eugenides yesterday re: conspiracy theorists.
Reactionary Snob
August 11, 2006 at 10:53 AM
Anonymous
said...
Guido, I think all that acid has finally addled your brain.
Your conspiracy sounds about as convincing as a Dan Brown novel.
August 11, 2006 at 10:55 AM
Anonymous
said...
Only thing is, I would have thought if Blair had wanted a terror boost he would have at least been in the country to fully benefit from it rather than rightly suffer the criticism for staying on holiday and allowing Prescott to look after us.
August 11, 2006 at 10:56 AM
Anonymous
said...
Time to introduce even more laws to restrict public liberties. Anyone who complains must be on the side of the terrorists and democracy. New Labour are not afraid - the lives of the general public are a price they are prepared to pay, so they can all be enriched by multiculturalism. As soon as they get rid of the indiginous folk - who may be dirty, Conservative voters - and replace them with good, "multicultural Labour voters," the better.
August 11, 2006 at 10:57 AM
Anonymous
said...
It was a passable Security Services Spectacular, but what happened to the tanks? Disappointing not to see tanks. You always had tanks at Heathrow in the good old days, when they did these things properly.
Also the Met failed to accidentally murder anyone, which was a bit of a let-down. Maybe it wasn't in the script this time, or maybe in the heat of the moment someone forgot to shoot.
Reid will have to do better if he wants to get this show all the way up to the Premiership.
Conspiracy theory's are always believable because people are never in full possession of all the facts.
Ask yourself then are this government and security services creating a situation when the people will rise up against the muslim community? Because that could well happen.
IF the theory is right Why then did Blair fly off on his holidays in full knowledge that something will be happening? That does not fit into your suggestion. Surely he would have been here on the air waves wringing his hands etc etc.
Much as I would like to agree with you, today dear Guido, I fear you are talking tripe!
As a father of a son in Iraq thank you for giving the terrorists there some succour!
Not convinced. If the 25 people they have arrested all turn out to be innocent then that WOULD be curtains for Blair. And what interest have the Pakistani govt (who appear to have backed up this story) got in keeping Blair in power?
August 11, 2006 at 11:06 AM
Anonymous
said...
Hmmm some conspiracy theory Guido! Lets see now, lets look at the facts. It looks like an attempt to carry out an atrocity has failed. Everything seems to have worked pretty well, despite Prescott being in charge. Shares in John Reid have jumped, most people seem to be reassured, that the government and security forces were 'on the job'. Bet the next poll, might see an improvement in the government's fortunes. Shares in David cameron suspended due to lack of interest.
August 11, 2006 at 11:07 AM
Anonymous
said...
Guido, I think you need to loosen the straps on your Guy Fawkes Mask. I don't think you're getting enough oxygen. If you were plotting a terrorist spectacular by detonating a device on an aircraft would you not pick the peak holiday season to cause maximum damage?
I will acknowledge that fear is a potent political weapon that can give the executive untold reach, but I would condemn any government who did not act on reasonable intelligence and left their citizens at risk to a terrorist attack.
August 11, 2006 at 11:08 AM
Anonymous
said...
Reducing to the simplest case - Occam's Razor...
1) There was an ongoing police investigation. Whether this was a group of idiots talking bollocks in the non-alcohol serving equivelant of a pub, or a bunch of dangerous loons will come out later.
2) The drinks issue. I noticed this one a while back. Basically you could walk through security holding a bottel of drink. Didn't go through the scanners. Lots of nasty stuff can be made as a colourless liquid. Bathtub chemistry is all that is required. So, not a ricin/red mecurcy plot - not inherently implaussible.
3) Timing of the arrests and speaches. I suggest you look at the similar event in Australia. John Howard timed a major set of security announcements around the arrest of a big bunch of wanabee members of the self detonating community. The reaseon for doing it that way round was that he couldn't be seen to be playing politics with security - he simply timed the announcment around the pre-planned raids/arrests.
Just one more thing... does anybody else feel rather indignant that two Scots appear to be in control of England at the moment? I thought they had their own government now.
August 11, 2006 at 11:12 AM
Anonymous
said...
Spot on Guido.
Operation 'Budget Justification' is now underway on both sides of the River Thames.
August 11, 2006 at 11:12 AM
Anonymous
said...
Here's the shocking reason we got no public enquiry regarding 7/7:
Perhaps MI5 should wait until world peace before revealing the results of their enquiries.
August 11, 2006 at 11:17 AM
Anonymous
said...
Last time I came back from holiday I brought a litre of explosive liquid onto the plane. Single malt of course.
August 11, 2006 at 11:19 AM
Anonymous
said...
Guido, you don't go far enough in your conspricising. Reid has been doing his "It's all under control, but we remain vigilant and will do all that is necessary to protect the public" speil on the beeb sound thingy.
So - arrest everybody, get them fingerprinted, DNA profiled, iris scanned and demand that they prove their innocence (for it is no longer assumed). Then just to be on the safe side, tag 'em all.
Voila! The brave new world of NuLabour dawns!
August 11, 2006 at 11:22 AM
Anonymous
said...
Nojags Neil I noticed and felt sick that twa Scots have taken overt control of England although neither of them represent constituencies in England.
Anonymous: both you and David Shayler both need tinfoil beanies if you believe that "mind the gap" bollocks.
August 11, 2006 at 11:47 AM
Anonymous
said...
Anonymous, 11.07 said:
"It looks like an attempt to carry out an atrocity has failed"
Full marks for observation. That's exactly what it looks like.
August 11, 2006 at 12:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
I am unable to speak, because I am cheering so loudly. Congrats, you should be proud of this one.
Yes, the UK and US governments have both confirmed that they knew about this group months in advance: Blair updated Bush just a few days ago. Check the Guardian and AP for that. I'm not seeing any particular evidence the terrorists were preparing to do this now. I think the arrests were made at this particular time for political reasons.
Does that mean they weren't terrorists? Not at all. Does that mean there may be a terrorist conspiracy and a government one? Yes indeed. Would your government deliberately manipulate the timing of events within its control for maximum political value?
Duh.
August 11, 2006 at 12:06 PM
Anonymous
said...
a disappointing post.
August 11, 2006 at 12:09 PM
Anonymous
said...
I wouldn't be surprised if the bomb plot was very real and the security services had good cause to believe an atrocity would be committed if allowed to run its course. Hence the massive surveillance operation. They would be working it until they were sure they had connected to all the players, and as long as no move by the bombers was imminent, they could mine it for information, contacts, funding sources etc...
That was until an opportunist Home Secretary jumped in when the boss was on hols and the Deputy PM was God knows where. Home Sec looks to be the man in charge, the safe pair of hands protecting the nation. But an opportunist - Mr. Reid? Surely not...
Be interesting to see if we get any murmerings from the spooks about how the integrity of their operation was compromised by early intervention. Especially if we get more from over the pond about how "five of our bombers are missing...." Not the message the Home Sec wants us to hear.
August 11, 2006 at 12:11 PM
Anonymous
said...
alternative conspiracy theory:
1. Blair is out of the country 2. How to prevent his return? 3. Cause airport chaos.
August 11, 2006 at 12:14 PM
Anonymous
said...
You people are fking morons. You're so god damned self obsessed. Do you really think various government ministers and officials sit around plotting security alerts/situations as part of a public relations strategy? You lot are complete morons.
August 11, 2006 at 12:15 PM
Anonymous
said...
To James Edward Smith,
I'm glad you and I travel on different airlines!!
10 * 3,000 people? How many people do you get on a pig class charter plane to Benidorm?
But suppose what the boy crying 'wolf' says is true? And we simply cannot know since the key info has to be kept under wraps to protect public safety. The punter is in a no-know, no-win situation here. What worries me is the liklihood that if it's all legit, the perps will get off because of our liberal laws, yet I hate the thought of anti-hate legislation, ID cards etc. There's no easy answer. Rumour-mongering is great fun (I come here every day) and I hate this government, but we may be laughing while Rome burns - and there may be no fire extinguishers. None.
August 11, 2006 at 12:21 PM
Anonymous
said...
You lot are fkin morons. Do you really think government ministers and officials sit around plotting and executing fake security alerts? You are so self obsessed. I am certain they have better things to do.
You lot a bunch of fkin morons.
August 11, 2006 at 12:21 PM
Anonymous
said...
an independent spirit said...a disappointing post.12:09 PM
I fully agree,all I got was a gas bill,BT`s weekly letter begging me to "come back"(no chance)and the Vietnamese Hip-Hop compilation I got from Ebay
August 11, 2006 at 12:22 PM
Anonymous
said...
Anonymous said..You lot a bunch of fkin morons.12:21 PM
Come on John,we know you`ve just discovered blogs but stop pissing around you`ve got a country to run. Come here to remind yourself who you shagged last week?
Interesting article Guido. I have an article on my blog about why Iraq is such a mess, and invading in the first place was not one of the things i concentrated on. Similar errors seem to have taken place in Afghanistan. See: http://aconservatives.blogspot.com/2006/08/iraq-why-are-we-in-this-mess.html
As for a conspiracy. Umm.. I am deadly concerned about Comrade Reids speech the day before this all went off.
August 11, 2006 at 12:26 PM
Anonymous
said...
Without trust, everything is fiction. Fiction like the folk tale, 'The Boy who cried Wolf' or the graphic novel, 'V for Vendetta'.
Guido may have become too subtle for his readers, deploying a 'grave and temperate irony' to expose the breakdown of trust between government and the governed. (Alternatively, the 'Ibiza deals' advertised here aren't about tourism and he's been taking payment in kind).
August 11, 2006 at 12:27 PM
Anonymous
said...
And so it came to pass that Guido Fawkes and Comment is Free were married and became one. Opposition creates the most unlikely bedfellows, doesn't it Guido?
Methinks that if it were the Boy Cameron, cheeks a-shining, declaring he had just thwarted a huge terrorist plot then Guido would have lost control of his bowels in excitement.
The composition of Parliament as it is though, he has to resort to swivel-eyed conspiracy theories reminiscent of the outpourings from the madder elements on CiF.
Hilarious, keep it up!
August 11, 2006 at 12:43 PM
Anonymous
said...
Tend to share Guido's view..... there was clearly prior knowledge of this group, and Reid himself today has said that if there was any risk to the planes they would not have been allowed to take off. If the group were known about for some time, why was yesterday picked as the day to introduce major security restrictions?
Political collateral: ratchet up the climate of fear; make it harder for the Opposition to oppose restrictions on civil liberties / ID cards; get the Lebanon off the front pages (and coincidentally also distract US opinion from the fact that the pro-war Democrat Lieberman was defeated by an anti-war challenger).
See LW post earlier: http://labour-watch.blogspot.com/2006/08/politically-convenient.html
August 11, 2006 at 12:52 PM
Anonymous
said...
It has already been proved that it's very difficult to make conspiracy charges stick (hence, people spending ages being held without charge) so, could the security services not be forgiven for allowing such a plot to continue for long enough to gather the necessary evidence?
Not saying that there are not terrorists out to do evil to us.
Just questioning the timing and spin of all this. Bloody handy politically isn't it?
Oh and aren't those of you who believe that there is a huge conspiracy to kill thousands en route to Disneyland the tin foil hat brigade?
August 11, 2006 at 12:59 PM
Anonymous
said...
Consider this: “Home Secretary Dr John Reid was relaxed enough about the terrorist issue to have been a boardroom guest for Celtic’s friendly against Celtic at Stamford Bridge on Wednesday night. However, Reid left in a hurry at half-time …” And: “Personally, I take comfort from this thought: if the security services know a terrorist attack is imminent, then why is our Prime Minister still on holiday in the West Indies?”
Conspiracy theory? Maybe! Govt crying wolf? Again maybe. But it's possible Ayatollah Tony was keen to get away on holiday before the poor trudging citizenry whom he is supposed to represent got wound up in his delusional interpretation of a sensible foreign policy?
August 11, 2006 at 1:03 PM
Anonymous
said...
Not saying that there are not terrorists out to do evil to us.
Just questioning the timing and spin of all this. Bloody handy politically isn't it?
Yep but if the security services were considered to be totally in control, risky though this strategy might be, maybe the grand unveiling could have been delayed for a little while for evidence gathering and to return a favour or two to the hands controlling the purse strings.
August 11, 2006 at 1:05 PM
Anonymous
said...
a propos Rosbif's observation about the authorities at Heathrow pushing all the passengers together, one does wonder about some of the security responses; see 'If the liquid could be explosive, why are you dumping it in a crowd?' (http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/10/if_the_liquid_could_.html)
August 11, 2006 at 1:10 PM
Anonymous
said...
Guido
I can see that the timing was politically opportune, to say the least, but why disbelieve the possibility that a group of Islamic loonies might be planning to blow up 5,000 over the Atlantic? If 3,000 on 9/11 and 52 on 7/7, why not 5,000 now? The religious soul-mates of the alleged plotters blow up scores of their co-religionists daily in Iraq, so why not thousands of infidels over the Atlantic?
August 11, 2006 at 1:13 PM
Anonymous
said...
Conspiracy guys - you are absolutely right. This is all about us and has nothing to do with the implosion of the Islamic religion and the crises of almost all the Middle East states. Its really all about the British government which is the most important and most devious ever.
Because everyone knows that this government has the competence, the skill, the 'joined-up' thinking to fix something like this; they are so on the ball and focused and just love long-term planning and thinking ahead about the consequences of their actions. And the police always do what they are told becasue they are such a super efficent security force. And this will play really well for the government since the British people are really behind their foreign policy and not so bored and lazy they would let IslamoFascists walk all over half the world.
Yes, this is clearly as fake as Munich, the Achille Lauro, Lockerbie, Bali, 9/11, 7/7 and all the rest of them.
JW
August 11, 2006 at 1:15 PM
Anonymous
said...
Anytime between now and the end of this NuLab government will be an excellent time to "foil a terrorist plot".
Because Tony and his entire fucking government are useless wankers who preside over disaster followed by shambles.
No timing necessary.
Guido, I'm surprised that you're inhaling even a whiff of conspiracy.
August 11, 2006 at 1:24 PM
Anonymous
said...
We wait for the day when a white middle-class bloke blows perpetrates a bombing outrage (a la Tim NcVie) against 'the State'. To quote the popular parlance, it is no longer a question of 'if', but merely 'when'
August 11, 2006 at 1:32 PM
Anonymous
said...
Despite blanket coverage for nearly 36 hours, not one piece of evidence has come out suggesting that a plot was being hatched.
Reid and others suggest that this is to prevent the risk of future court cases being thrown out for contempt - but this doesn't stop the treasury naming and then publicising the names of 19 of the accused on its website (and notifying journos that this information was there)
Since De Menezes/Forest Hill/Dodgy Dossier it is no longer enough for the Government to proclaim that a plot has been prevented. I want evidence. Until I see some, I will presume that Guido's got it spot on.
August 11, 2006 at 1:32 PM
Anonymous
said...
"My bullshit detector went straight to the red zone with the Today programme’s pathetic credulity"
The Today programme milked the story for 3 solid hours, but in the heat of the moment John Humprhys made a significant slip. He started talking about 'British' terrorists and then hastily corrected himself to 'British-born'. In other words they might be British-born, but they're not really British.
And this is no accident. The revealing phrase 'British born' appeared on the BBC News site yesterday, too.
It seems to me that a clear solution to the aviation problem is beginning to emerge. If you are 'British' you can fly around the world with your laptop, OJ and shampoo to comfort you. But if you are merely 'British born' (nudge nudge) you can bloody well walk.
Doubtless when the lawyers weasel them off the hook, you can crow triumphantly that the plot was non-existent. But if they'd been more on the ball in my neck of the woods last year, they might have arrested 4 blokes. Between them, they'd have had some hairspray and fertiliser, some rucksacks, tracked some phone calls and found a postcard from Pakistan. And of course that wouldn't amount to a hill of beans in a court of law. And of course the police would have been guilty of further 'alienating' these young men.
Any low-tech plot like those specialised in by the Islamofascists by very dint of its nature is difficult to detect and prove. The IRA were forever purchasing munitions, had arms dumps, command structures, sophisticated bombing methods. The things that worked against them don't work under these circumstance.
God knows I despise this shower-of-cack government as much as the next man, but on this issue they need to be cut a bit of slack. Damned if they do, damned if they don't... and regardless what you might think, they don't write the headlines by themselves.
August 11, 2006 at 1:44 PM
Anonymous
said...
Guido Fawkes Esq. said... Oh and aren't those of you who believe that there is a huge conspiracy to kill thousands en route to Disneyland the tin foil hat brigade?12:59 PM
A tin foil hat is possibly not the best choice of head-wear in the current heat-wave.And why bomb people going to Disneyland and earn the deserved contempt of the right-thinking world when you could bomb the actual place after closing time and gain it`s admiration?
August 11, 2006 at 1:48 PM
Anonymous
said...
Strange how we extradite people like the Natwest guys to the US at the drop of a hat. However, when it comes to extraditing Haroon Rashid Aswat, it's a different story. Wonder why?
August 11, 2006 at 1:56 PM
Anonymous
said...
On the coup thing...remember that Ceausescu was also out of the country when the trouble took off in 1989. He went to Iran. I would think Tony's Prime Ministerial days would be numbers if he spent his summer hols in Tehran. "Listen Tony we have had a whip round for a ticket...and raised eight million pounds".
August 11, 2006 at 2:08 PM
Anonymous
said...
Was there a plot to blow up planes? Yes probably – supposedly a martyr video tape has been found – whether it was a G.B.H style (à la Bleesdale) plot will hopefully one day come out in the wash.
As for the likelihood of it being executed in “the next few days” I am very, very dubious.. I think the second week of September would be a far more likely date, what with Al-Qaeda’s penchant for significant dates (also if plan was that close to execution, why have no bottles of nefarious liquid been found - one would imagine pictures of these would flashed around the world as soon as they where found)
I think the more likely scenario is this.. HMG has been following these people for a few months, Blair goes on holiday with his tail between his legs after failing miserably to win any PR points on the Isreal – Lebanon debacle, and John Reid thinks to himself, there is a party conference on the horizon, and I Don’t think Gordon should be the only Scot in with a chance when the tower of Blairbel finally comes crushing down.. Oh and while I am at, I can steal a few more Civil liberties and let’s make those ID cards a bit more intrusive…
Positioning.. it’s all about positioning…
August 11, 2006 at 2:09 PM
Anonymous
said...
"Oh and aren't those of you who believe that there is a huge conspiracy to kill thousands en route to Disneyland the tin foil hat brigade?"
eh? Bit of a crass comment there Guido - one too many glasses of rose at lunch?
Unless I'm wrong at least one huge conspiracy to kill people en route to New York already resulted in the deaths of thousands. I also believe the people who planned the conspiracy have made numerous statements about how they will do it again - and backed up words with actions in Bali, Madrid and London. No tin foil headwear needed to believe they will try again
August 11, 2006 at 2:17 PM
Anonymous
said...
Folk are getting much too excited and narrowly focused on this one.
Suggest that 1984 is worth a read alongside the newspeak from the Homeland Security apparatchik, we slip ever closer to what was intended as a representation of a perverted society dedicated to and perpetually distracted by its own ‘long war’.
It does not matter if this event is ‘real’ or not, it has led to another clamp down on and will motivate the next group of the disaffected etc etc, its just another marker on a road to 1984. Get used to it.
August 11, 2006 at 2:24 PM
Anonymous
said...
We should now move for the break-up of Iraq and the creation of Kurdistan - this requires slices of Iran and Syria - and would create a new pro-Western grouping. It is time for a bit of nation-building..........why must only Palestinians have a homeland ?
August 11, 2006 at 2:30 PM
Anonymous
said...
If the group were known about for some time, why was yesterday picked as the day to introduce major security restrictions?
Why not yesterday ? Or was tomorrow more convenient for you ?
August 11, 2006 at 2:31 PM
Anonymous
said...
Though I do not doubt there are terrorists out there who are particularly determined, I have always believed the war on terror was nothing more than propaganda given out by Bush and Blair in order to gain more votes. There is something a bit fishy in the timing (with the Middle East crisis and all that).
Anyway did anyone else think the same as me with the baby milk thing. Surely a suicide bomber who had put explosives in baby milk wouldn't care if he drank them as he would be dead in a couple of hours anyway.
August 11, 2006 at 2:34 PM
Anonymous
said...
So, is Parliament going to be re-called now, or not? C'mon Guido. You're supposed to be the one with the gen. 'Fess up or we'll turn those thumb screws.
" Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author." In view of this notice, don't bother posting (I don't wanna be famous) just answer the question in a subsequent post when you have a moment, please.
August 11, 2006 at 2:38 PM
Anonymous
said...
Finally, someone else who agrees with me! http://oluf.co.uk/?p=115
At least having the two minute hate (make that the 10 hour hate) in an airport keeps everyone in shot for the cameras!
you seriously disappoint me Guido. I think you have been hitting the turps too hard this morning. so all those serious members of the security services are part of a PR conspiracy.
Think about it rationally. Every head of security organisation would have been briefed on ongoing surveillance operation.
Any one of them going on Newsnight saying "Tony Blair told us to move on this now" would end Blairs career. How many people would have to be in on the PR scam. They could not even bury the post 911 comments - "today would be a good day to bury news"
What kind of fuckwit do you have to be not to give the security services due credit. they missed 7/7 but got this one.
I dunno where you go from here but think a bit more seriously about the conspiracy implications next time. This is a clear example of the limitation of blogging versus snail media. the lack of editors makes us put our foot in our mouths sometimes.
I am not for a minute saying Blair will not milk it for all it is worth now. Simply that the political risk of politically interfering with security services is beyond measure.
August 11, 2006 at 2:39 PM
Anonymous
said...
God I despise the cretins who fall for the "if you critizise the Government, you must support Bin Laden" line. This whole fake bomb scam had one purpose - "to ratchet up the climate of fear" (nice phrase) and to make it easier for the Gov to cripple civil liberties. What will be interesting is when the cretins above wake up to the fact that the Gov could, instead of screwing with the average WASP citizen, target all of that hassle on the cunts causing the trouble - or is that why UKIP membership is rising. Nice thread Guido; you should know a bit about fixed/fake bomb plots and consequent Government PR spins.
August 11, 2006 at 2:45 PM
Anonymous
said...
I dunno Guido, why is it so handy politically? Doesn't this yet again show the terrible ramifications of the government's mind numbingly short-sighted foreign policy?
Fear maybe a great method of control, but that doesn't stop people questioning why the threat's there in the first place.
August 11, 2006 at 2:59 PM
Anonymous
said...
Of course. And I hadn't realised it. It's an analysis that's all the more impressive coming from someone who has clearly instinctively supported all the "war on terror" adventures.
August 11, 2006 at 3:10 PM
Anonymous
said...
This government is so incompetent, I can't imagine it could organise anything as complicated as what you're suggesting.
August 11, 2006 at 3:26 PM
Anonymous
said...
You're coming over all paranoid, have you been applying for an American Visa. But, the yanks seem to know an awful lot of what went on over here yesterday, just look at the info coming from the US press. Who did call the shots, not our boys i'd say as we are prone to brinkmanship getting them in the bag at the last minute with the smoking gun and the evidence.
Horse Badorties : By the way, how did Margaret Beckett get to New York yesterday?
The same way she gets her groceries - by The Queen's Flight.
I don't call her "Air Horse One" for nothing!
August 11, 2006 at 3:37 PM
Anonymous
said...
I don't know if this was a serious threat, an exagerated threat or no real threat at all. What I do know is that the reason many people are suspicious is the direct result of that lying bastard Blair's 45 minutes warning. How can you expect people to accept anything this government says at face value after that.
August 11, 2006 at 3:57 PM
Anonymous
said...
Guido - I have been reading your blog for a long time; well before it went trendy and mainstream. Until now I have never felt the urge to post comment. I can't believe your giving your support to the conspiracy/stage management arguments; I despair. As always with these myths, there is always a grain of truth in the argument that allows the apologists and appeasers of murderers (namely the communist left and illogical Muslim community) to spout these malicious lies.
Islamic-fascists tried to kill about 3000 civilians, why? They are insane, evil and intolerant beyond the comprehension of the reasonable citizen. They have been brainwashed in secular communities that reject the values of the peaceful world (democracy, equality and commerce). They are so wacky-religious that they actually believe in martyrdom to an extent that the pain of suicide is outweighed by the pleasure of 72 virgins.
Yesterday they tried to kill 3000 odd people. Last month they killed 200 civilians on a train in Bombay. This is an evil just as monstrous as Nazi-Germany and the fascist nationalism in Japan during WW2. These people have no compassion. This is not a Rove/New Lab spin campaign. I detest the government spin operations as much as anybody but that is not an excuse to drop the ball. This threat is real; it has killed many and wishes to kill many more. Your allegations help to justify their sick actions and cause.
August 11, 2006 at 4:06 PM
Anonymous
said...
MI5 are tracking plenty of lunatics who like to speculate about making some big attacks. Is it really a wild conspiracy theory to suggest maybe when Reid was briefed on their latest antics, that political expediency was a factor in his decision to "bring them in"? The media always laps up this kind of shit. Pisses me off no end when I want to see some real news occasionally.
August 11, 2006 at 4:16 PM
Anonymous
said...
Surely the best way to find evidence would have been to wait until the suspects made their way to the airport and arrested them there? They would have had the bomb components on them. Although I suppose there's the risk they might have let them off - in which case an alternative would be to wait until they had just stepped out of their front doors.
August 11, 2006 at 4:23 PM
Anonymous
said...
I must say Guido, you do keep your eye on the ball. Living in a country were we suspect that the present government made a deal with the ETA terrorists to use the Muslim groups they work with in selling drugs for guns, to blow up a few trains. Killing over a 100 local peasants, just before the government elections, changing the government in the process. This makes Big Toni and company small timers for present day socialists. They actual stoped the blood from running something any national socialist will tell you is necessary to water the streets with to win elections. But then Spain is a little different
August 11, 2006 at 4:23 PM
Anonymous
said...
I agree with Guido and immediately thought it myself.
Once again the government has used fear and hysteria to tame the 'big beast' which are citizens in society who are wholly dissatisfied with them the rulers. The media is a wonderful place for all this to be spun out. Its a great pantomime, big John(former member of the Communist Party of Great Britain up until 1991)Reid can reassure and give overlengthy press conferences about the situation in his headmaster style patronizing tone. These shock tactics help the government to win people onto their side as it presents a hidden, dark, violent enemy within, which the people and the government should be united against. It deflects attention away from the poor management of the government, the wars in Afghanistan and the horrific actions in Lebanon.
Of course people exist who want to do unspeakable things to us, but the government have chosen to release this at a very calculating point in time. The news media has barely mentioned Lebanon or Afghanistan, the Guardian for instance today had 8 pages dedicated to the ‘foiled plot’ and very little on the aforementioned issues which had taken up so many newspaper pages in recent weeks. For those who think the government would not do this please think again.
August 11, 2006 at 4:54 PM
Anonymous
said...
The timing becomes even more coincidental when you find out that the next day Israel, in advance of an expected UN resolution on a peace deal, sanction the start of a ground invasion (Sky just reported this).
I've joined the dots Mr Blair, it's just that I've joined my own dots not the ones you were trying to foist on us.
August 11, 2006 at 4:59 PM
Anonymous
said...
Just to stoke up the general level of paranoia : as a qualified Range Officer who has frequently watched plod in action on the firing range, the majority of police are completely unsuited to be allowed anywhere near a firearm. They have serious 'Billy the Kid syndrome'. Realistically you are far more likely to be shot by an over-excited plod than blown up by a member of the self detonating community.
August 11, 2006 at 5:12 PM
Anonymous
said...
Remember its August. Calm down everyone.
August 11, 2006 at 5:22 PM
Anonymous
said...
Conspiracy theories? But who killed Lezlie? http://www.siangtai.com/EN/newspage1_detail.php?News_ID=3592
August 11, 2006 at 5:37 PM
Anonymous
said...
Bit of kite flying Guido?
Now if if you on my way to the airport and you happened to hear there was a plot to take ten planes out at the same time AND they hadn't arrested anyone - would your boxers turn brown?
Do you seriously think the government would want to bang up 30 more British Muslims for nowt after the problems they had with just 2 last time?
Wouldn't surprise me if the CIA's 'double' in Islamabad was behind it all though...
August 11, 2006 at 5:37 PM
Anonymous
said...
There is not a problem on the planet that is so big and so complicated that it cannot be run away from.
August 11, 2006 at 5:41 PM
Anonymous
said...
'Get Wilcox'. To be fair to the muslim lads, they could have got the 'Di killed to stop her marrying a Muslim' stuff from reading the Daily/Sunday Express month-in, month-out.
Also Dodi was not a devout practising Muslim, he was a right leg-over Larry. An Arab, however, which, let's face it, would drive half the British Establishment to suicide-bomb themselves in their own homes rather than accept even semi-detached into the royal family.
August 11, 2006 at 5:57 PM
Anonymous
said...
Pay attention now, that means you too Pressa, corporal Ried has some vital information from HQ. Seems the balloon's finally gone up. Fifth columnists have been caught acting suspiciously around the drinks machine. This isn't a laughing matter, so stop sniggering at the back. The security of the nation is at stake. Let these muslim chappies have half a chance and they won't return the empties. Well, I can tell you vigilence pays off. Nipped in the bud, I'd say, at least before they could screw the tops off. There's no telling where this will end. How many of these chappies have been buying drinks saying they are thirsty is anyone's guess. All leave has been cancelled and no one can leave the country until we have got to the bottom of this one.
August 11, 2006 at 6:17 PM
Anonymous
said...
Yaffle says,
To cure your heavy dose of scepticism drink Dr Reid's patent scaremongering medicine and swallow his glazed iris pills. You will know when you're better when you have found the buried bad news - perhaps in your stools.
August 11, 2006 at 6:27 PM
Anonymous
said...
Rosbif summed it all up nicely. Thank you Rosbif.
August 11, 2006 at 7:23 PM
Anonymous
said...
My suspicions? Yes, this lot arrested probably were planning to commit a mass atrocity. I also suspect if they had gone through with their plan they'd have had all the success of the second set of underground bombers, but the concept of their being a bunch of home grown nutters willing to blow up public transport has been shown to be quite genuine - we've had nine British-grown terrorists of this sort, three of whom blew up their targets and fourth another passenger vehicle (and you didn't list unsuccessful shoe bombs on the gimmicks list, Guido). The Powers That Be, on the other hand, have lept on this incident with glee - it confirms to them that they aren't paranoid, but that there *are* people out to get us. So they use it as yet another excuse to crack down on civil liberties and declare their opponents are weak or "don't get it". They didn't arrange this (I suspect they're too inept to arrange this) - it just showed up at a convenient time.
So, Iraq and Afghanistan as a shambles when bombers plan to blow up planes in a holiday season? August is always holiday season, and Iraq and Afghanistan have been shambles for ages now. It's not really much of a coincidence.
August 11, 2006 at 7:32 PM
Anonymous
said...
Youre a wise old codger indeed rosbif.
Whoever flew into the twin towers my bullshit detector was alerted when it was announced that they found
a)passports of terrorists in the rubble b)an abandonded hire car at Boston with a copy of the Koran in it
this within hours of the horrific event. How do you find a passport that has been through that?
i concur with ya in toto... expressed similar views on my blog...
August 11, 2006 at 7:47 PM
Anonymous
said...
Does anyone know how many of those who have been arrested in these sweeps since 2001 have been convicted and how many have been released?
And what happened to the sam missiles that were meant to be the reason for the tanks at Heathrow 2003? Aren't they still out their in the country and if so what's been done to get them? If they didn't actually exist isn't that a paranoid conspiracy theory?
This one is right up there with the 'tanks at Heathrow' farce. If I hadn't sat through every minute of the Hutton Inquiry, and watched Scarlett reveal how politicised the security services have become, I might think Guido was just mucking about. But I did, and so I do not. The fact is that this govt has made its own decietful bed and must now lie in it. No-one believes a word they say anymore.
Obviously, I don't know what the truth is. However, I was surprised to see one contributor to the Democratic Underground Forum on Wednesday evening saying that the would-be suicide bombers arrested that day *had not bought tickets or made reservations to fly*. If true, it might mean that the security services decided the risk of letting those under surveillance actually buy an air ticket was too great. Or it might mean that the boys left behind looking after the shop, while Blair was on hols, saw an opportunity to hog the limelight, make all the ponderous statements, etc.
Meanwhile, on page 2: men, women and children continue to be blown to smithereens in Lebanon and Iraq.
August 11, 2006 at 8:15 PM
Anonymous
said...
Who the hell are all these scotsmen on the telly threatening us? has there been a coup or something?
Is prezza the last englishman left?
August 11, 2006 at 8:16 PM
Anonymous
said...
Being the chap who was prepared to bet on point (3) above...
I will further bet that that the police have relearned a lesson that they learnt in Northern Ireland. And one they should have rememebered from the story of the SIS. No, not MI6, but the Sepecial Investigative Squad of the Los Angeles police.
Basically, police intelligence of robberies and other serious crimes got good. So good, that when they arrested people, all they got was vague conspiracy charges. So, SIS was set up. They would follow criminals for weeks. Let them commit minor crimes. Then, when they actually robbed a bank, they got them for 20 years.
Arrests in Italy, Pakistan, the US, and the UK. A sequence of arrests and then a mass of peple rounded up, with an ongoing hunt for more suspects.
This does not have the appearance of a stage managed conspiracy by Bush and Blair.
Terrorists have the look of misguided fools and the police appear to be putting one over on us when they succeed at stopping a plot. What would breaking up 7/7 or its inept followers have looked like? How about Madrid on 3/11? The idiots who carried out 9/11? What about the blind sheikh and his idiots who tried to knock down WTC the first time?
Our enemy appears daft and relies on what looks to be harebrained schemes to cause panic. Any success can be played up as racist targeting of poor muslims and a fascist conspriacy on the part of those in power.
How does it feel, Guido, to be alligning yourself with RESPECT, Galloway, and the Stoppers? Do you really want to be Mosley? Duranty?
This is real folks, it is deadly, and serious.
What we need isn't to downplay the threat and shout down the government. What we must do is to show how the government isn't responding appropriately to the threat.
Why aren't yachts and villas of dodgy financiers blowing up around the Med? Why aren't senior Saudis having heart attacks caused by a 50 caliber? Why aren't hostile governments and parties rent by a proliferation of gas line faults?
Take this bloody war to the people that fund and cause it. Execute or deport every member of Hizb Ul Tahir. Crack down on those who endorse terrorism (Mr. Blackshirt, every member of RESPECT, every member of STWC, etc). Bring back real punishments for treason and real speed in trials and sentencing (A Tale of Two Cities would be a good place to look for ideas on both). End regimes that threaten the west. Create real disincentives for terrorist attacks (every bomb or attempted bomb on a terrorist target gets one city in a terror supporting country or area nuked).
We now have to relearn courage and ferocity. We must bring back the fire of our ancestors, Churchill, Harris, Nelson, Marlborough, Augustus.
Tehran delenda est. Saud delenda est. Damascus delenda est. Quom delenda est. Pyonyang delenda est.
This war will not be over until our women are veiled and the green banner flies atop Westminster and the Whitehouse or we have proven that jihad means nothing but death and destruction for all that succour it.
You lot may all be partisans of the Oxford Union debaters who declared that they would not fight for any reason, but I believe in death before dishonour and have nor problem doing whatever is necessary to protect Western Civilisation. Whatever is necessary!
After that, we can then go back to our intramural fights about the size of government and I will take up again the suspicion of government intrusion.
August 11, 2006 at 8:44 PM
Anonymous
said...
Not to mention the fact that there was a primary election in the US 48 hours before this scare, the results of which indicated the Republicans faced quite a drubbing in the November elections. Coincidental timing? I think not.
On this occasion, Guido, I disagree. But the problem is -- after Iraq, nobody believes British intelligence. After de Menezes and Forest Gate, nobody believes the Met police. Iraq is Tony Blair's fault. The other two (I happen to think) are nobody's fault.
Oh -- and for whoever asked, Margaret Beckett either flew from France, or got the Queen's flight. It is allowed for Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
I don't believe that Guido believe that it's bollocks. He's the one crying wolf.
August 11, 2006 at 9:39 PM
Anonymous
said...
Blair's timely escape to the Carribean ahead of the terror headlines is a sign that he knows that Alastairt Campbell is about to release another perceptive dossier on why we should stage the next world cup........
August 11, 2006 at 9:58 PM
Anonymous
said...
Indigo said...
Meanwhile, on page 2: men, women and children continue to be blown to smithereens in Lebanon and Iraq. 8:15 PM
Acetone Peroxide has apparently been a favourite of the police and Number 10 SpAds ever since 7th July 2005 when it was mistakenly presumed by Scotland Yard that this explosive was used in the tube and bus bombings. Unfortunately for Blair and John 'Doctor Gorbals' Reid Acetone Peroxide is worse than useless in its liquid form, since it can't be compressed and thus has less effect than lighting up a can of kerosene - added to the fact that this stuff really stinks badly and is incredibly unstable; only in solid and compressed crystalline form is it a highly explosive compound but again very, very unstable - far more so than nitroglycerine. Not surprisingly the police are tonight claiming that the Muslim terrorists intended to use a 'acetone peroxide-based liquid explosive'.
As for the incredibly stupid and rather fatuous "You've got the lives of 10 * 3,000 people on your consciousness if you opposed the police foiling this plot." comment, I opposed the infamous Red Mercury trial - does that mean I could have upwards of 500,000 dead on my conscious because I, and others, opposed police prosecuting men on completely fabricated grounds?
August 11, 2006 at 10:54 PM
Anonymous
said...
Congrats, Guido, on drawing attention to this Government's determination to govern by fear.
There's a link to this film - Peace, Propoganda & The Promised Land - from another link on one of these comments. Hers's a direct one: http://video.google.com/ videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696 As the blog comments software cuts long links, I've split it into two parts.
The point of the film is obvious to anyone other than perhaps the most rabid fear-monger. Sort out the illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank and you draw the sting.
I do believe there are many terrorist plots going on. Many of which the buggers will bottle out of at the last second. Decoys you could say. Lotts of bored Muslim young men living in a sad fanfasy world. Vigins at the end etc, after all no point in looking in London for one over 16 is there?
Have the police found the big wood this time, instead of a few sad sexually frustrated trees? I think only time will tell.
Guido have you forgotton already that this sort of thing HAS happened before? 7/7 for example, only last year. I thought MY memory was getting bad.
Timing however very suspicious. Its not as if they picked them up at the airport is it? The police have many "ongoing investigations" to pull out of the hat whenever Blair gives the word to Blair.
No use some of you socialists moaning to much you voted for the shifty hypocritical creep, I didnt.
August 11, 2006 at 11:31 PM
Anonymous
said...
Non Sequitur, your facts are uncoordinated...
Young neo con and Hey seem to be the only ones who understand the situation.
Islamofacsists represent a clear and present danger. They are poisoned by psychopathic memes and animated by a desire to strike back at perceived muslim oppressors. Whether the invasion of Iraq / Afghanistan is right or wrong is moot. Whoever threw the first stone; hizbollah or Isreal, is academic. What matters is what the jihadis believe, what they would have us believe and what intentions they are hiding behind their lies. They are prepared kill themselves and take as many other people with them to get their message across.
Conspiracy theories abound from across the political / ideological spectra, all serve to distract from the islamist agenda, I am surprised Guido has subscribed.
The facts will emerge after the spin cycle in a couple of weeks time. Meanwhile there are many other jihadi cells plotting their atrocities right now, The security services have to be lucky all the time... jihadis only have to be lucky once.
A quick calculation shows that these people are NOT fucking about.
12 x Boeing 777 at 385 persons is 4,620
If the aircraft were brought down over American cities there would be many thousands more dead, take a conservative estimate say 500
12 * 500 is 6000
That is a guesstimate of nearly 11,000 people murdered. It could be double or triple that.
I am certain that if the plot suceeded it would have created a monumental global shitstorm.
Mecca could glowing-in-the-dark by now.
How's that for a conspiracy?
Regards
August 12, 2006 at 12:46 AM
Anonymous
said...
garypowell said...No use some of you socialists moaning to much you voted for the shifty hypocritical creep, I didnt.11:31 PM
Well I did the first time round but then I used to believe in the toothy fairy
August 12, 2006 at 1:14 AM
Anonymous
said...
greenham woman said...Whoever flew into the twin towers my bullshit detector was alerted when it was announced that they found a)passports of terrorists in the rubble b)an abandonded hire car at Boston with a copy of the Koran in it this within hours of the horrific event. How do you find a passport that has been through that? 7:40 PM
Conspiracy theorists AND those who think everything is black and white might well find this interesting reading,quite long but worth reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladio
August 12, 2006 at 1:39 AM
Anonymous
said...
oh dear. I came here for political gossip, not CiF nonsense.
Never forget that Osama bin Laden was created by the CIA. All of this began in Afganistan years ago. Sow the wind,reap the whirlwind.
August 12, 2006 at 3:08 AM
Anonymous
said...
garypowell said... I do believe there are many terrorist plots going on. Many of which the buggers will bottle out of at the last second. Decoys you could say. Lotts of bored Muslim young men living in a sad fantasy world.11:31 PM
Or if you want to be really cynical they might monitor groups of disaffected Muslim youths venting on the internet,let them run because venting`s all they`ll ever do,possibly even encourage them towards ever more inflammatory language with an infiltrator.Then pull them in when it suits,make loads of noise and use the internet traffic as "proof" of the forthcoming neutron bomb attack on the local Tesco Metro or whatever,take their computers away in front of the world`s media for effect.When the scare`s served it`s purpose you let them go without charge one or two at a time on days when something dramatic is hogging the headlines and only Channel 4 news give a shit enough to even mention the freed "suspects".
August 12, 2006 at 3:54 AM
Anonymous
said...
Good to see you've sided with the terrorists Guido and joined the absurd conspiracy theory brigade. You're always boasting about your high readership figures, well, you've just lost one.
August 12, 2006 at 4:09 AM
Anonymous
said...
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
August 12, 2006 at 10:47 AM
Anonymous
said...
If you really want an explosive liquid try Kahlua, vodka and milk. Your headache will survive the plane crash, even if you don't.
August 12, 2006 at 10:50 AM
Anonymous
said...
Thanks for the support, Guido.
In retrospect I understand now why my COBRA-associated acquaintance said he might be busy for a couple of weeks and it might mean some flying, but I was never good at taking a hint...
However, my diagnosis of the same morning was the same as yours, and remains the same. Real terrorists are being blown up (ho, ho) into something much scarier 'cos that suits the joint agenda of our overcontrolling pols and securocrats.
Unemployed young Muslim men-not bored.The devil makes work for idle hands. If young men feel they have no prospects,of course they will fall prey to extremists.Look what happened in Northern Ireland.
August 12, 2006 at 11:36 AM
Anonymous
said...
As the offspring of an aeronautical engineer, I have to say that the estimates of casualties here seem a bit...moonbat to me. You'd have to find a place where a thousand people were piled up at one time in order to kill a thousand people. Blowing a plane up over New York would result in less than four hundred immediate casualties (the passengers) plus a helluvalotta grossed out, slimed New Yorkers. When you blow people up, they end up in relatively small particles, not huge, lumbering chunks. They wouldn't kill a whole lot of ground-based people.
August 12, 2006 at 12:02 PM
Anonymous
said...
At first glance, the plot is plausible - terrorists carrying the ingredients to produce a a mixture of liquids to produce an explosive that can be easily detonated. This could, in the worst case scenario, bring down an aircraft. It is possible - possibly likely that the mixture would not work as planned or that passengers or airline staff would overpower the bombers.
In this case, the police, security and intelligence services had to act. Whether the plot was feasible will be borne out in the courts and scrutinised over the next few months.
The instinctive reaction to suspect government over-reation and spin is perfectly understandable, after all the lies we have been told since 2002 (and before). I strongly suspect that the sinister minister John Reid has planned to use the arrests to boster his own political position. Nevertheless, I believe that there was at least a potential threat.
I tried to make gunpowder and nitroglycerine in school chemistry classes many years ago. Gunpowder was straightforward (as I am sure Guido knows well!) but I couldn't get the nitroglycerine to work. It may well be the case that the conspitators' chemistry was overambitious. An explosive weapon has two fundamental characteristics - it must make the required bang when you want it to, and it must not make the required bang when you don't want it to. It must be both easily exploded and stable. Add to this the various hurdles that the terrorist must overcome - limited resources, limited size of the finished product, size of bang required to cause damage or deaths, overcoming scrutiny and searches etc - making a portable bomb is unlikely to be easy.
Indigo said... Meanwhile, on page 2: men, women and children continue to be blown to smithereens in Lebanon and Iraq. 8:15 PM
and men, women and children in Israel.
Actually, in the past month, in wholly illegal actions the State of Israel has continued to kill around 10 times more civilians in Gaza and the Occupied Territories - and in Lebanon 100 times more - than the numbers of Israel civilians killed in that period by anyone else.
August 12, 2006 at 2:23 PM
Anonymous
said...
And I'm still looking for answers...
"Does anyone know how many of those who have been arrested in these sweeps since 2001 have been convicted and how many have been released?"
"And what happened to the sam missiles that were meant to be the reason for the tanks at Heathrow 2003? Aren't they still out their in the country and if so what's been done to get them? If they didn't actually exist isn't that a paranoid conspiracy theory?"
hey (8.44), This war will not be over until our women are veiled and the green banner flies atop Westminster and the Whitehouse
Really. I can think of worse things than having to wear a veil when I leave the house. And living in an Islamic state just might be more civilised and peaceful than living with an Israel totally out of control. Islam has a tradition of tolerating freedom of worship (eg Christians), although that might not now extend to the tribes of Israel - but, hey, Israel has pissed in the well.
August 12, 2006 at 2:30 PM
Anonymous
said...
Do you subcontract the weekend production of this website to the Walthamstow radical mosques, Guido?
This is a genuine serious threat to national security. If anything, it shows that our national security laws aren't too tight- they are too weak!
By posting this, you've teamed up with the Taliban and the Trots. Now I know you are a Tory, Guido- but surely that would be an odd alliance even by their motley standards?
August 12, 2006 at 3:29 PM
Anonymous
said...
I have no idea whether this was a genuine plot: we need to get more reliable information than is given in the mostly lurid media stories.
We are told that an attack was imminent: the terrorists would therefore have known precisely what they were going to do at the time of arrest. However:
(1) The media contain conflicting stories as to whether the explosions were to occur over the Atlantic or over US cities. Which was it? (2) Most of the liquids that would react to form explosives are very reactive substances. A number have been mentioned in the press. Anyone fancy carrying around concentrated nitric acid in a plastic drinks bottle for 10 hours? Or what about hydrazine - pity it decomposes so easily. Were those arrested in possession of a credible plan for getting the relevant substances on board and preparing an explosive capable of breaching a plane's walls?
If the police can answer such questions credibly over the next few days, fine, this could have been an extremely dangerous conspiracy. Otherwise...
Did anyone else notice that Die Hard with a Vengeance has been playing non stop on Sky over the last month, it features a plot involving liquid bombs. Then it happens in real life too. That's some coincidence!
August 12, 2006 at 7:03 PM
Anonymous
said...
Guido,
If you actually believe that the UK and USA are conspiring to harm their own economic interests and detain innocent British Muslims, cause massive protests from the Muslim community and scare us into supporting neo-conservative foreign policy you need to take a break from the internet.
Maybe you should go and have a holiday yourself, sit by the pool and drink some Sangria.
I find it disturbing you can suggest that our government are our real enemy - you need to get real and find a real cover up to report. Try investigating the cock-up that led to British Customs waving magic mushrooms through Dover and slapping on 17.5% on the way through the green alley.
I'm sure there is any number of similar cock ups the over-sized un-achieving new-labour have made over the last 9 years that you could talk about instead of suggesting that the British establishment are our worst enemy.
Yo, Blair - remember how invading Iraq was going to make us all safer? As history will relate, more than three years later, we can't take a bottle of water onto an aeroplane. Not that that will disturb your beauty sleep, bitch boy, 'cos you don't use commercial carriers. So long as you are not inconvenienced, the rest of us can go hang. A true leader shares the hardships of the troops; a true leader can be seen in the light of the watchfires in a time of crisis - not mouthing platitudes about "tragedy" on the deck of Saint Cliff's yacht; a true leader knows decent doubt. You are so not our leader.
August 12, 2006 at 10:56 PM
Anonymous
said...
"Anyone who knows a thing about how surveillance and intervention is conducted would know that "picking them up at the airport" would involve running substantial risks - primarily of losing the suspects, but also of detonation at the moment of intervention, in a crowded public place."
Understandable, so why not pick them up just as they were about to head to the airport? That way they would have had the goods on them but wouldn't have been near to their target.
Come to think of it, have the police found any hard evidence yet? While I'm (currently) sympathetic to the view that there was a plot I fear there is a possibility that either a)there has been a gigantic cockup regarding information or b)the police went for them too early
August 13, 2006 at 2:51 AM
Anonymous
said...
Was there a plot?
Probably.
Will the government spin this out of all proportions for any political gain they can make, individually or collectively?
How about picking them up without xx Kg of highly unstable explosive substances and an iPod on them? By the way has anyone else managed to convert an iPod to be a detonator (can't even get mine to charge up properly hese days) and which track would the explosive faithful use to kick themselves into touch with Allah?
August 13, 2006 at 2:20 PM
Anonymous
said...
You know what they're doing with the liquids they confiscate? Dumping them into bins. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the little issue of blowing shit up supposed to happen when you mixed the liquids together?
August 13, 2006 at 2:24 PM
Anonymous
said...
Anyone following this even half closely will be bemused by all the contradictions.We`re led to believe that the current alert was as a result of information given by Pakistani Intelligence a couple of days ago.Also that security forces were aware if it all along and had even burgled the premises of those responsible,bugging them and making safe noxious substances in the process(so where`s the "sudden and imminent" threat in that case?)That`s just 2 opposing tales,2 of many.It`s already got the makings of the usual balls-up,several different versions of events emerging from people without the wit to even get their heads together to come up with the same story.No-one`s been charged,one has already been released,same old same old.Difference this time is that given the disruption and cost of the latest "alert" should it appear to be the usual dropped bollock Reid would have to go closely followed by Blair and who knows who else.It would be kind of ironic if actions that terrorists DIDN`T take brought down the Government.If you want another conspiracy theory what a great way to get rid of the Government in a bloodless coup,if that sounds far-fetched cast your minds back to Harold Wilson and the security services dirty tricks campaign against him or even C.I.A. meddling with the aid of their Pakistani Allies,this government certainly seems to have out-lived it`s usefulness to Bush for some reason.
Those whose names have been published by the Bank of England (when their assets were frozen) can fairly claim now that they cannot have a fair trial. They have been named before they were charged with anything at all - they are still innocent - and one is a minor.
Dictator Blair is to force through 90-day detention without charge. This tells me that (a) the police do not at the moment have enough evidence to charge those arrested last week with anything (some of them did not, apparently, even have passports); (b) Blair intends that Britain falls in behind whatever Bush wants the war on terra to be until the November mid-term elections are over.
I've had a horrible thought. The Bank of England has published the names of the suspects, although they have not yet been charged with anything. And, although they have not been charged with anything, should the USA decide it wants them extradited (the pretext being that only American airlines were to be targeted, allegedly), Blair will send them to Bush like he sent the Enron three to Bush. Then Bush will put them in Guantanamo Bay to rot for years without access to lawyers.
August 13, 2006 at 9:05 PM
Anonymous
said...
And I'm still looking for answers...
"Does anyone know how many of those who have been arrested in these sweeps since 2001 have been convicted and how many have been released?"
"And what happened to the sam missiles that were meant to be the reason for the tanks at Heathrow 2003? Aren't they still out their in the country and if so what's been done to get them? If they didn't actually exist isn't that a paranoid conspiracy theory?"
raincoaster (2.24), you know what they're doing with the liquids they confiscate? Dumping them into bins
And the rest is being sold on eBay (Stateside, anyway). It's all over the Democratic Underground Forum - something for them to be outraged about at last.
August 14, 2006 at 6:44 AM
Anonymous
said...
My understanding is that it's not unusual to name suspects who've been arrested. If it's fair game in some cases, why not in others? I don't trust the government to be cherry-picking the people it chooses to protect.
Surely if publishing their names guarantees an unfair trial in this case, it does so in all trials. I'm in favour of treating them like everyone else in the system, because if the system's that fucked up, it's time we fixed the bloody thing, isn't it? This looks like the government interfering with the Judiciary, which is never a good thing.
I note with interest that the MSM in North America at least is coming around to Guido's (and my) point of view; that whatever these people were up to, the arrests were timed for political reasons, not safety reasons, and that the timing was coordinated between Downing Street and the White House (or, more likely, Cheney's underground bunker on his island lair).
August 14, 2006 at 8:46 AM
Anonymous
said...
Cross-posted. Sue me.
Guido (and I) look a bit smarter today than we did two days ago, when everyone was calling us paranoid (among other choice words)
From BoingBoing:
NBC: Hair-gel terrorists posed no risk last week
An anonymous "senior British official knowledgeable about the [hair-gel bombers]" told NBC that there was no threat to airplanes last week, that the terrorists had been under surveillance for over a year, and that UK government didn't plan on arresting these guys until they'd surveilled them a while longer, but moved when they did because of US pressure: In contrast to previous reports, the official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports... The official shed light on other aspects of the case, saying that while the investigation into the bombing plot began "months ago," some suspects were known to the security services even before the London subway bombings last year.
raincoaster, in the UK the names of suspects are not publicised until they have been formally charged and identified by the police. In this instance, it appears that the suspects' names were not published by the police but by the Bank of England at the instruction of the British Government. John Reid's pawprints all over this. The government said that in publishing the names, it was not inferring guilt. Bollocks - it is defamation, too.
Stinks.
A Brit posting on the Democratic Underground Forum described Reid as a combination of Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld. That's probably going a bit far - Reid is nothing like as wealthy as they are, AIUI.
August 14, 2006 at 11:09 AM
Anonymous
said...
Guess your comments only go to show that whilst political hacks may speak to you, those in the intelligence community don't. You're usually cleverer than this, Guido. This plan and many others, have been prevented by hard work and good luck and, unfortunately, they're not going to go away just because people - like you - choose to believe some half-arsed conspiracy theory.
August 14, 2006 at 12:22 PM
Anonymous
said...
indigo: very interesting, thanks. So they haven't been charged with any offences at this point? Wonder what's taking so long.
Yes well it seems doing a wild goose chase is good for getting everyone in a panic, and showing you're doing something for national security. Remember putting blast barriers around Parliament? Or the army with tanks at Heathrow?
Still much better better than last year's little PR stunt called "shoot dead the Arab terrorist", who actually turned out to be just a Brazillian student.
Course this will show how much we need an ID card scheme and tougher rules for holding suspected terrorists/innocent members of the public - just like Big Tony has been saying all along.
But the good news is, this shouldn't affect the Blair family holiday, because when they holiday abroad they choose Royal Flights, the Politician Airline of choice - London to Derby our speciality!
147 comments:
Guido, I despair you are not concentrating on THE most important question on Tony's mind.
"Should I use factor 20 and risk not getting a tan or factor 5 and risk getting burnt?"
The Register are also reporting this as their "option 1". "Option 2" is that the reason for the yanks being apparently underwhelmed is that "...a few planes blowing up over the Atlantic is small potatoes." Until somebody shows me a flask of nitro-glycerine, my money is on option 1.
See Guido at work - http://tinyurl.co.uk/td54
Oh my gawd, Guido... I... I... I... I am speechless, I didn't think you would be in the same camp as me on this.
Can I add:
After Dr Reids speech demanding our freedoms this was very timely wasnt it?
Whose listening to those two formerly loyal Blairites do a hatchet job on dear leader now?
The real question is though, what do we do?
Runaway J. That means you are a conspiracy theorist. That's what a conspiracy theorist is. Someone who mistakes paranoid delusion (apologies Guido) for plausible argument.
The media are desperate for stories, including the new fangled media, it seems...
You’re right to be concerned Guido. I’ve found that this product has proved vital to me at this difficult and confusing time:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/
I point you in the direction of a post on Mr. Eugenides yesterday re: conspiracy theorists.
Reactionary Snob
Guido, I think all that acid has finally addled your brain.
Your conspiracy sounds about as convincing as a Dan Brown novel.
Only thing is, I would have thought if Blair had wanted a terror boost he would have at least been in the country to fully benefit from it rather than rightly suffer the criticism for staying on holiday and allowing Prescott to look after us.
Time to introduce even more laws to restrict public liberties. Anyone who complains must be on the side of the terrorists and democracy.
New Labour are not afraid - the lives of the general public are a price they are prepared to pay, so they can all be enriched by multiculturalism.
As soon as they get rid of the indiginous folk - who may be dirty, Conservative voters - and replace them with good, "multicultural Labour voters," the better.
It was a passable Security Services Spectacular, but what happened to the tanks? Disappointing not to see tanks. You always had tanks at Heathrow in the good old days, when they did these things properly.
Also the Met failed to accidentally murder anyone, which was a bit of a let-down. Maybe it wasn't in the script this time, or maybe in the heat of the moment someone forgot to shoot.
Reid will have to do better if he wants to get this show all the way up to the Premiership.
For some American scepticism, see this:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/10/usa_not_impressed/
Conspiracy theory's are always believable because people are never in full possession of all the facts.
Ask yourself then are this government and security services creating a situation when the people will rise up against the muslim community? Because that could well happen.
IF the theory is right Why then did Blair fly off on his holidays in full knowledge that something will be happening? That does not fit into your suggestion. Surely he would have been here on the air waves wringing his hands etc etc.
Much as I would like to agree with you, today dear Guido, I fear you are talking tripe!
As a father of a son in Iraq thank you for giving the terrorists there some succour!
Remember, the tin foil goes shiny side out...
This seems like a popular theme...
http://beyondthereports.blogspot.com/
Not convinced. If the 25 people they have arrested all turn out to be innocent then that WOULD be curtains for Blair. And what interest have the Pakistani govt (who appear to have backed up this story) got in keeping Blair in power?
Hmmm some conspiracy theory Guido! Lets see now, lets look at the facts. It looks like an attempt to carry out an atrocity has failed. Everything seems to have worked pretty well, despite Prescott being in charge. Shares in John Reid have jumped, most people seem to be reassured, that the government and security forces were 'on the job'. Bet the next poll, might see an improvement in the government's fortunes. Shares in David cameron suspended due to lack of interest.
Guido, I think you need to loosen the straps on your Guy Fawkes Mask. I don't think you're getting enough oxygen. If you were plotting a terrorist spectacular by detonating a device on an aircraft would you not pick the peak holiday season to cause maximum damage?
I will acknowledge that fear is a potent political weapon that can give the executive untold reach, but I would condemn any government who did not act on reasonable intelligence and left their citizens at risk to a terrorist attack.
Reducing to the simplest case - Occam's Razor...
1) There was an ongoing police investigation. Whether this was a group of idiots talking bollocks in the non-alcohol serving equivelant of a pub, or a bunch of dangerous loons will come out later.
2) The drinks issue. I noticed this one a while back. Basically you could walk through security holding a bottel of drink. Didn't go through the scanners. Lots of nasty stuff can be made as a colourless liquid. Bathtub chemistry is all that is required. So, not a ricin/red mecurcy plot - not inherently implaussible.
3) Timing of the arrests and speaches. I suggest you look at the similar event in Australia. John Howard timed a major set of security announcements around the arrest of a big bunch of wanabee members of the self detonating community. The reaseon for doing it that way round was that he couldn't be seen to be playing politics with security - he simply timed the announcment around the pre-planned raids/arrests.
I will be prepared to bet money on point (3)
Just one more thing... does anybody else feel rather indignant that two Scots appear to be in control of England at the moment? I thought they had their own government now.
Spot on Guido.
Operation 'Budget Justification' is now underway on both sides of the River Thames.
Here's the shocking reason we got no public enquiry regarding 7/7:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2001897549763616199
Perhaps MI5 should wait until world peace before revealing the results of their enquiries.
Last time I came back from holiday I brought a litre of explosive liquid onto the plane. Single malt of course.
Guido, you don't go far enough in your conspricising. Reid has been doing his "It's all under control, but we remain vigilant and will do all that is necessary to protect the public" speil on the beeb sound thingy.
So - arrest everybody, get them fingerprinted, DNA profiled, iris scanned and demand that they prove their innocence (for it is no longer assumed). Then just to be on the safe side, tag 'em all.
Voila! The brave new world of NuLabour dawns!
Nojags Neil I noticed and felt sick that twa Scots have taken overt control of England although neither of them represent constituencies in England.
Anonymous: both you and David Shayler both need tinfoil beanies if you believe that "mind the gap" bollocks.
Anonymous, 11.07 said:
"It looks like an attempt to carry out an atrocity has failed"
Full marks for observation. That's exactly what it looks like.
I am unable to speak, because I am cheering so loudly. Congrats, you should be proud of this one.
Yes, the UK and US governments have both confirmed that they knew about this group months in advance: Blair updated Bush just a few days ago. Check the Guardian and AP for that. I'm not seeing any particular evidence the terrorists were preparing to do this now. I think the arrests were made at this particular time for political reasons.
Does that mean they weren't terrorists? Not at all. Does that mean there may be a terrorist conspiracy and a government one? Yes indeed. Would your government deliberately manipulate the timing of events within its control for maximum political value?
Duh.
a disappointing post.
I wouldn't be surprised if the bomb plot was very real and the security services had good cause to believe an atrocity would be committed if allowed to run its course. Hence the massive surveillance operation. They would be working it until they were sure they had connected to all the players, and as long as no move by the bombers was imminent, they could mine it for information, contacts, funding sources etc...
That was until an opportunist Home Secretary jumped in when the boss was on hols and the Deputy PM was God knows where. Home Sec looks to be the man in charge, the safe pair of hands protecting the nation. But an opportunist - Mr. Reid? Surely not...
Be interesting to see if we get any murmerings from the spooks about how the integrity of their operation was compromised by early intervention. Especially if we get more from over the pond about how "five of our bombers are missing...." Not the message the Home Sec wants us to hear.
alternative conspiracy theory:
1. Blair is out of the country
2. How to prevent his return?
3. Cause airport chaos.
You people are fking morons. You're so god damned self obsessed. Do you really think various government ministers and officials sit around plotting security alerts/situations as part of a public relations strategy? You lot are complete morons.
To James Edward Smith,
I'm glad you and I travel on different airlines!!
10 * 3,000 people? How many people do you get on a pig class charter plane to Benidorm?
But suppose what the boy crying 'wolf' says is true? And we simply cannot know since the key info has to be kept under wraps to protect public safety. The punter is in a no-know, no-win situation here. What worries me is the liklihood that if it's all legit, the perps will get off because of our liberal laws, yet I hate the thought of anti-hate legislation, ID cards etc. There's no easy answer. Rumour-mongering is great fun (I come here every day) and I hate this government, but we may be laughing while Rome burns - and there may be no fire extinguishers. None.
You lot are fkin morons. Do you really think government ministers and officials sit around plotting and executing fake security alerts? You are so self obsessed. I am certain they have better things to do.
You lot a bunch of fkin morons.
an independent spirit said...a disappointing post.12:09 PM
I fully agree,all I got was a gas bill,BT`s weekly letter begging me to "come back"(no chance)and the Vietnamese Hip-Hop compilation I got from Ebay
Anonymous said..You lot a bunch of fkin morons.12:21 PM
Come on John,we know you`ve just discovered blogs but stop pissing around you`ve got a country to run.
Come here to remind yourself who you shagged last week?
Very well played.
Interesting article Guido. I have an article on my blog about why Iraq is such a mess, and invading in the first place was not one of the things i concentrated on. Similar errors seem to have taken place in Afghanistan. See:
http://aconservatives.blogspot.com/2006/08/iraq-why-are-we-in-this-mess.html
As for a conspiracy. Umm.. I am deadly concerned about Comrade Reids speech the day before this all went off.
Without trust, everything is fiction. Fiction like the folk tale, 'The Boy who cried Wolf' or the graphic novel, 'V for Vendetta'.
Guido may have become too subtle for his readers, deploying a 'grave and temperate irony' to expose the breakdown of trust between government and the governed. (Alternatively, the 'Ibiza deals' advertised here aren't about tourism and he's been taking payment in kind).
And so it came to pass that Guido Fawkes and Comment is Free were married and became one. Opposition creates the most unlikely bedfellows, doesn't it Guido?
Methinks that if it were the Boy Cameron, cheeks a-shining, declaring he had just thwarted a huge terrorist plot then Guido would have lost control of his bowels in excitement.
The composition of Parliament as it is though, he has to resort to swivel-eyed conspiracy theories reminiscent of the outpourings from the madder elements on CiF.
Hilarious, keep it up!
Tend to share Guido's view..... there was clearly prior knowledge of this group, and Reid himself today has said that if there was any risk to the planes they would not have been allowed to take off. If the group were known about for some time, why was yesterday picked as the day to introduce major security restrictions?
Political collateral: ratchet up the climate of fear; make it harder for the Opposition to oppose restrictions on civil liberties / ID cards; get the Lebanon off the front pages (and coincidentally also distract US opinion from the fact that the pro-war Democrat Lieberman was defeated by an anti-war challenger).
See LW post earlier: http://labour-watch.blogspot.com/2006/08/politically-convenient.html
It has already been proved that it's very difficult to make conspiracy charges stick (hence, people spending ages being held without charge) so, could the security services not be forgiven for allowing such a plot to continue for long enough to gather the necessary evidence?
Not saying that there are not terrorists out to do evil to us.
Just questioning the timing and spin of all this. Bloody handy politically isn't it?
Oh and aren't those of you who believe that there is a huge conspiracy to kill thousands en route to Disneyland the tin foil hat brigade?
Consider this:
“Home Secretary Dr John Reid was relaxed enough about the terrorist issue to have been a boardroom guest for Celtic’s friendly against Celtic at Stamford Bridge on Wednesday night. However, Reid left in a hurry at half-time …”
And: “Personally, I take comfort from this thought: if the security services know a terrorist attack is imminent, then why is our Prime Minister still on holiday in the West Indies?”
Conspiracy theory? Maybe! Govt crying wolf? Again maybe. But it's possible Ayatollah Tony was keen to get away on holiday before the poor trudging citizenry whom he is supposed to represent got wound up in his delusional interpretation of a sensible foreign policy?
Not saying that there are not terrorists out to do evil to us.
Just questioning the timing and spin of all this. Bloody handy politically isn't it?
Yep but if the security services were considered to be totally in control, risky though this strategy might be, maybe the grand unveiling could have been delayed for a little while for evidence gathering and to return a favour or two to the hands controlling the purse strings.
a propos Rosbif's observation about the authorities at Heathrow pushing all the passengers together, one does wonder about some of the security responses; see 'If the liquid could be explosive, why are you dumping it in a crowd?' (http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/10/if_the_liquid_could_.html)
Guido
I can see that the timing was politically opportune, to say the least, but why disbelieve the possibility that a group of Islamic loonies might be planning to blow up 5,000 over the Atlantic? If 3,000 on 9/11 and 52 on 7/7, why not 5,000 now? The religious soul-mates of the alleged plotters blow up scores of their co-religionists daily in Iraq, so why not thousands of infidels over the Atlantic?
Conspiracy guys - you are absolutely right. This is all about us and has nothing to do with the implosion of the Islamic religion and the crises of almost all the Middle East states. Its really all about the British government which is the most important and most devious ever.
Because everyone knows that this government has the competence, the skill, the 'joined-up' thinking to fix something like this; they are so on the ball and focused and just love long-term planning and thinking ahead about the consequences of their actions. And the police always do what they are told becasue they are such a super efficent security force. And this will play really well for the government since the British people are really behind their foreign policy and not so bored and lazy they would let IslamoFascists walk all over half the world.
Yes, this is clearly as fake as Munich, the Achille Lauro, Lockerbie, Bali, 9/11, 7/7 and all the rest of them.
JW
Anytime between now and the end of this NuLab government will be an excellent time to "foil a terrorist plot".
Because Tony and his entire fucking government are useless wankers who preside over disaster followed by shambles.
No timing necessary.
Guido, I'm surprised that you're inhaling even a whiff of conspiracy.
We wait for the day when a white middle-class bloke blows perpetrates a bombing outrage (a la Tim NcVie) against 'the State'. To quote the popular parlance, it is no longer a question of 'if', but merely 'when'
Despite blanket coverage for nearly 36 hours, not one piece of evidence has come out suggesting that a plot was being hatched.
Reid and others suggest that this is to prevent the risk of future court cases being thrown out for contempt - but this doesn't stop the treasury naming and then publicising the names of 19 of the accused on its website (and notifying journos that this information was there)
Since De Menezes/Forest Hill/Dodgy Dossier it is no longer enough for the Government to proclaim that a plot has been prevented. I want evidence. Until I see some, I will presume that Guido's got it spot on.
"My bullshit detector went straight to the red zone with the Today programme’s pathetic credulity"
The Today programme milked the story for 3 solid hours, but in the heat of the moment John Humprhys made a significant slip. He started talking about 'British' terrorists and then hastily corrected himself to 'British-born'. In other words they might be British-born, but they're not really British.
And this is no accident. The revealing phrase 'British born' appeared on the BBC News site yesterday, too.
It seems to me that a clear solution to the aviation problem is beginning to emerge. If you are 'British' you can fly around the world with your laptop, OJ and shampoo to comfort you. But if you are merely 'British born' (nudge nudge) you can bloody well walk.
Doubtless when the lawyers weasel them off the hook, you can crow triumphantly that the plot was non-existent. But if they'd been more on the ball in my neck of the woods last year, they might have arrested 4 blokes. Between them, they'd have had some hairspray and fertiliser, some rucksacks, tracked some phone calls and found a postcard from Pakistan. And of course that wouldn't amount to a hill of beans in a court of law. And of course the police would have been guilty of further 'alienating' these young men.
Any low-tech plot like those specialised in by the Islamofascists by very dint of its nature is difficult to detect and prove. The IRA were forever purchasing munitions, had arms dumps, command structures, sophisticated bombing methods. The things that worked against them don't work under these circumstance.
God knows I despise this shower-of-cack government as much as the next man, but on this issue they need to be cut a bit of slack. Damned if they do, damned if they don't... and regardless what you might think, they don't write the headlines by themselves.
Guido Fawkes Esq. said...
Oh and aren't those of you who believe that there is a huge conspiracy to kill thousands en route to Disneyland the tin foil hat brigade?12:59 PM
A tin foil hat is possibly not the best choice of head-wear in the current heat-wave.And why bomb people going to Disneyland and earn the deserved contempt of the right-thinking world when you could bomb the actual place after closing time and gain it`s admiration?
Strange how we extradite people like the Natwest guys to the US at the drop of a hat. However, when it comes to extraditing Haroon Rashid Aswat, it's a different story. Wonder why?
On the coup thing...remember that Ceausescu was also out of the country when the trouble took off in 1989. He went to Iran. I would think Tony's Prime Ministerial days would be numbers if he spent his summer hols in Tehran. "Listen Tony we have had a whip round for a ticket...and raised eight million pounds".
Was there a plot to blow up planes? Yes probably – supposedly a martyr video tape has been found – whether it was a G.B.H style (à la Bleesdale) plot will hopefully one day come out in the wash.
As for the likelihood of it being executed in “the next few days” I am very, very dubious.. I think the second week of September would be a far more likely date, what with Al-Qaeda’s penchant for significant dates (also if plan was that close to execution, why have no bottles of nefarious liquid been found - one would imagine pictures of these would flashed around the world as soon as they where found)
I think the more likely scenario is this.. HMG has been following these people for a few months, Blair goes on holiday with his tail between his legs after failing miserably to win any PR points on the Isreal – Lebanon debacle, and John Reid thinks to himself, there is a party conference on the horizon, and I Don’t think Gordon should be the only Scot in with a chance when the tower of Blairbel finally comes crushing down.. Oh and while I am at, I can steal a few more Civil liberties and let’s make those ID cards a bit more intrusive…
Positioning.. it’s all about positioning…
"Oh and aren't those of you who believe that there is a huge conspiracy to kill thousands en route to Disneyland the tin foil hat brigade?"
eh? Bit of a crass comment there Guido - one too many glasses of rose at lunch?
Unless I'm wrong at least one huge conspiracy to kill people en route to New York already resulted in the deaths of thousands. I also believe the people who planned the conspiracy have made numerous statements about how they will do it again - and backed up words with actions in Bali, Madrid and London. No tin foil headwear needed to believe they will try again
Folk are getting much too excited and narrowly focused on this one.
Suggest that 1984 is worth a read alongside the newspeak from the Homeland Security apparatchik, we slip ever closer to what was intended as a representation of a perverted society dedicated to and perpetually distracted by its own ‘long war’.
It does not matter if this event is ‘real’ or not, it has led to another clamp down on and will motivate the next group of the disaffected etc etc, its just another marker on a road to 1984. Get used to it.
We should now move for the break-up of Iraq and the creation of Kurdistan - this requires slices of Iran and Syria - and would create a new pro-Western grouping. It is time for a bit of nation-building..........why must only Palestinians have a homeland ?
If the group were known about for some time, why was yesterday picked as the day to introduce major security restrictions?
Why not yesterday ? Or was tomorrow more convenient for you ?
Though I do not doubt there are terrorists out there who are particularly determined, I have always believed the war on terror was nothing more than propaganda given out by Bush and Blair in order to gain more votes. There is something a bit fishy in the timing (with the Middle East crisis and all that).
Anyway did anyone else think the same as me with the baby milk thing. Surely a suicide bomber who had put explosives in baby milk wouldn't care if he drank them as he would be dead in a couple of hours anyway.
So, is Parliament going to be re-called now, or not? C'mon Guido. You're supposed to be the one with the gen. 'Fess up or we'll turn those thumb screws.
" Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author." In view of this notice, don't bother posting (I don't wanna be famous) just answer the question in a subsequent post when you have a moment, please.
Finally, someone else who agrees with me!
http://oluf.co.uk/?p=115
At least having the two minute hate (make that the 10 hour hate) in an airport keeps everyone in shot for the cameras!
you seriously disappoint me Guido. I think you have been hitting the turps too hard this morning. so all those serious members of the security services are part of a PR conspiracy.
Think about it rationally. Every head of security organisation would have been briefed on ongoing surveillance operation.
Any one of them going on Newsnight saying "Tony Blair told us to move on this now" would end Blairs career. How many people would have to be in on the PR scam. They could not even bury the post 911 comments - "today would be a good day to bury news"
What kind of fuckwit do you have to be not to give the security services due credit. they missed 7/7 but got this one.
I dunno where you go from here but think a bit more seriously about the conspiracy implications next time. This is a clear example of the limitation of blogging versus snail media. the lack of editors makes us put our foot in our mouths sometimes.
I am not for a minute saying Blair will not milk it for all it is worth now. Simply that the political risk of politically interfering with security services is beyond measure.
God I despise the cretins who fall for the "if you critizise the Government, you must support Bin Laden" line. This whole fake bomb scam had one purpose - "to ratchet up the climate of fear" (nice phrase) and to make it easier for the Gov to cripple civil liberties.
What will be interesting is when the cretins above wake up to the fact that the Gov could, instead of screwing with the average WASP citizen, target all of that hassle on the cunts causing the trouble - or is that why UKIP membership is rising.
Nice thread Guido; you should know a bit about fixed/fake bomb plots and consequent Government PR spins.
I dunno Guido, why is it so handy politically? Doesn't this yet again show the terrible ramifications of the government's mind numbingly short-sighted foreign policy?
Fear maybe a great method of control, but that doesn't stop people questioning why the threat's there in the first place.
Of course. And I hadn't realised it. It's an analysis that's all the more impressive coming from someone who has clearly instinctively supported all the "war on terror" adventures.
This government is so incompetent, I can't imagine it could organise anything as complicated as what you're suggesting.
You're coming over all paranoid, have you been applying for an American Visa.
But, the yanks seem to know an awful lot of what went on over here yesterday, just look at the info coming from the US press.
Who did call the shots, not our boys i'd say as we are prone to brinkmanship getting them in the bag at the last minute with the smoking gun and the evidence.
A British government source said an intercepted message from Pakistan telling the bombers to "go now" had triggered the arrests.
The Grauniad today.
I suppose you believe the moon landings were faked too ?
Horse Badorties : By the way, how did Margaret Beckett get to New York yesterday?
The same way she gets her groceries - by The Queen's Flight.
I don't call her "Air Horse One" for nothing!
I don't know if this was a serious threat, an exagerated threat or no real threat at all. What I do know is that the reason many people are suspicious is the direct result of that lying bastard Blair's 45 minutes warning. How can you expect people to accept anything this government says at face value after that.
Guido - I have been reading your blog for a long time; well before it went trendy and mainstream. Until now I have never felt the urge to post comment. I can't believe your giving your support to the conspiracy/stage management arguments; I despair. As always with these myths, there is always a grain of truth in the argument that allows the apologists and appeasers of murderers (namely the communist left and illogical Muslim community) to spout these malicious lies.
Islamic-fascists tried to kill about 3000 civilians, why? They are insane, evil and intolerant beyond the comprehension of the reasonable citizen. They have been brainwashed in secular communities that reject the values of the peaceful world (democracy, equality and commerce). They are so wacky-religious that they actually believe in martyrdom to an extent that the pain of suicide is outweighed by the pleasure of 72 virgins.
Yesterday they tried to kill 3000 odd people. Last month they killed 200 civilians on a train in Bombay. This is an evil just as monstrous as Nazi-Germany and the fascist nationalism in Japan during WW2. These people have no compassion. This is not a Rove/New Lab spin campaign. I detest the government spin operations as much as anybody but that is not an excuse to drop the ball. This threat is real; it has killed many and wishes to kill many more. Your allegations help to justify their sick actions and cause.
MI5 are tracking plenty of lunatics who like to speculate about making some big attacks. Is it really a wild conspiracy theory to suggest maybe when Reid was briefed on their latest antics, that political expediency was a factor in his decision to "bring them in"? The media always laps up this kind of shit. Pisses me off no end when I want to see some real news occasionally.
Surely the best way to find evidence would have been to wait until the suspects made their way to the airport and arrested them there? They would have had the bomb components on them. Although I suppose there's the risk they might have let them off - in which case an alternative would be to wait until they had just stepped out of their front doors.
I must say Guido, you do keep your eye on the ball. Living in a country were we suspect that the present government made a deal with the ETA terrorists to use the Muslim groups they work with in selling drugs for guns, to blow up a few trains. Killing over a 100 local peasants, just before the government elections, changing the government in the process. This makes Big Toni and company small timers for present day socialists. They actual stoped the blood from running something any national socialist will tell you is necessary to water the streets with to win elections.
But then Spain is a little different
I agree with Guido and immediately thought it myself.
Once again the government has used fear and hysteria to tame the 'big beast' which are citizens in society who are wholly dissatisfied with them the rulers. The media is a wonderful place for all this to be spun out. Its a great pantomime, big John(former member of the Communist Party of Great Britain up until 1991)Reid can reassure and give overlengthy press conferences about the situation in his headmaster style patronizing tone. These shock tactics help the government to win people onto their side as it presents a hidden, dark, violent enemy within, which the people and the government should be united against. It deflects attention away from the poor management of the government, the wars in Afghanistan and the horrific actions in Lebanon.
Of course people exist who want to do unspeakable things to us, but the government have chosen to release this at a very calculating point in time. The news media has barely mentioned Lebanon or Afghanistan, the Guardian for instance today had 8 pages dedicated to the ‘foiled plot’ and very little on the aforementioned issues which had taken up so many newspaper pages in recent weeks. For those who think the government would not do this please think again.
The timing becomes even more coincidental when you find out that the next day Israel, in advance of an expected UN resolution on a peace deal, sanction the start of a ground invasion (Sky just reported this).
I've joined the dots Mr Blair, it's just that I've joined my own dots not the ones you were trying to foist on us.
Just to stoke up the general level of paranoia : as a qualified Range Officer who has frequently watched plod in action on the firing range, the majority of police are completely unsuited to be allowed anywhere near a firearm.
They have serious 'Billy the Kid syndrome'. Realistically you are far more likely to be shot by an over-excited plod than blown up by a member of the self detonating community.
Remember its August. Calm down everyone.
Conspiracy theories?
But who killed Lezlie?
http://www.siangtai.com/EN/newspage1_detail.php?News_ID=3592
Bit of kite flying Guido?
Now if if you on my way to the airport and you happened to hear there was a plot to take ten planes out at the same time AND they hadn't arrested anyone - would your boxers turn brown?
Do you seriously think the government would want to bang up 30 more British Muslims for nowt after the problems they had with just 2 last time?
Wouldn't surprise me if the CIA's 'double' in Islamabad was behind it all though...
There is not a problem on the planet that is so big and so complicated that it cannot be run away from.
'Get Wilcox'. To be fair to the muslim lads, they could have got the 'Di killed to stop her marrying a Muslim' stuff from reading the Daily/Sunday Express month-in, month-out.
Also Dodi was not a devout practising Muslim, he was a right leg-over Larry. An Arab, however, which, let's face it, would drive half the British Establishment to suicide-bomb themselves in their own homes rather than accept even semi-detached into the royal family.
Pay attention now, that means you too Pressa, corporal Ried has some vital information from HQ. Seems the balloon's finally gone up. Fifth columnists have been caught acting suspiciously around the drinks machine. This isn't a laughing matter, so stop sniggering at the back. The security of the nation is at stake. Let these muslim chappies have half a chance and they won't return the empties. Well, I can tell you vigilence pays off. Nipped in the bud, I'd say, at least before they could screw the tops off. There's no telling where this will end. How many of these chappies have been buying drinks saying they are thirsty is anyone's guess. All leave has been cancelled and no one can leave the country until we have got to the bottom of this one.
Yaffle says,
To cure your heavy dose of scepticism drink Dr Reid's patent scaremongering medicine and swallow his glazed iris pills. You will know when you're better when you have found the buried bad news - perhaps in your stools.
Rosbif summed it all up nicely. Thank you Rosbif.
My suspicions? Yes, this lot arrested probably were planning to commit a mass atrocity. I also suspect if they had gone through with their plan they'd have had all the success of the second set of underground bombers, but the concept of their being a bunch of home grown nutters willing to blow up public transport has been shown to be quite genuine - we've had nine British-grown terrorists of this sort, three of whom blew up their targets and fourth another passenger vehicle (and you didn't list unsuccessful shoe bombs on the gimmicks list, Guido). The Powers That Be, on the other hand, have lept on this incident with glee - it confirms to them that they aren't paranoid, but that there *are* people out to get us. So they use it as yet another excuse to crack down on civil liberties and declare their opponents are weak or "don't get it". They didn't arrange this (I suspect they're too inept to arrange this) - it just showed up at a convenient time.
So, Iraq and Afghanistan as a shambles when bombers plan to blow up planes in a holiday season? August is always holiday season, and Iraq and Afghanistan have been shambles for ages now. It's not really much of a coincidence.
Youre a wise old codger indeed rosbif.
Whoever flew into the twin towers my bullshit detector was alerted when it was announced that they found
a)passports of terrorists in the rubble
b)an abandonded hire car at Boston with a copy of the Koran in it
this within hours of the horrific event. How do you find a passport that has been through that?
i concur with ya in toto... expressed similar views on my blog...
Does anyone know how many of those who have been arrested in these sweeps since 2001 have been convicted and how many have been released?
And what happened to the sam missiles that were meant to be the reason for the tanks at Heathrow 2003? Aren't they still out their in the country and if so what's been done to get them? If they didn't actually exist isn't that a paranoid conspiracy theory?
This one is right up there with the 'tanks at Heathrow' farce.
If I hadn't sat through every minute of the Hutton Inquiry, and watched Scarlett reveal how politicised the security services have become, I might think Guido was just mucking about. But I did, and so I do not.
The fact is that this govt has made its own decietful bed and must now lie in it.
No-one believes a word they say anymore.
Obviously, I don't know what the truth is. However, I was surprised to see one contributor to the Democratic Underground Forum on Wednesday evening saying that the would-be suicide bombers arrested that day *had not bought tickets or made reservations to fly*. If true, it might mean that the security services decided the risk of letting those under surveillance actually buy an air ticket was too great. Or it might mean that the boys left behind looking after the shop, while Blair was on hols, saw an opportunity to hog the limelight, make all the ponderous statements, etc.
Meanwhile, on page 2: men, women and children continue to be blown to smithereens in Lebanon and Iraq.
Who the hell are all these scotsmen on the telly threatening us? has there been a coup or something?
Is prezza the last englishman left?
Being the chap who was prepared to bet on point (3) above...
I will further bet that that the police have relearned a lesson that they learnt in Northern Ireland. And one they should have rememebered from the story of the SIS. No, not MI6, but the Sepecial Investigative Squad of the Los Angeles police.
Basically, police intelligence of robberies and other serious crimes got good. So good, that when they arrested people, all they got was vague conspiracy charges. So, SIS was set up. They would follow criminals for weeks. Let them commit minor crimes. Then, when they actually robbed a bank, they got them for 20 years.
Guido... mate you're too tightly wrapped on this.
Arrests in Italy, Pakistan, the US, and the UK. A sequence of arrests and then a mass of peple rounded up, with an ongoing hunt for more suspects.
This does not have the appearance of a stage managed conspiracy by Bush and Blair.
Terrorists have the look of misguided fools and the police appear to be putting one over on us when they succeed at stopping a plot. What would breaking up 7/7 or its inept followers have looked like? How about Madrid on 3/11? The idiots who carried out 9/11? What about the blind sheikh and his idiots who tried to knock down WTC the first time?
Our enemy appears daft and relies on what looks to be harebrained schemes to cause panic. Any success can be played up as racist targeting of poor muslims and a fascist conspriacy on the part of those in power.
How does it feel, Guido, to be alligning yourself with RESPECT, Galloway, and the Stoppers? Do you really want to be Mosley? Duranty?
This is real folks, it is deadly, and serious.
What we need isn't to downplay the threat and shout down the government. What we must do is to show how the government isn't responding appropriately to the threat.
Why aren't yachts and villas of dodgy financiers blowing up around the Med? Why aren't senior Saudis having heart attacks caused by a 50 caliber? Why aren't hostile governments and parties rent by a proliferation of gas line faults?
Take this bloody war to the people that fund and cause it. Execute or deport every member of Hizb Ul Tahir. Crack down on those who endorse terrorism (Mr. Blackshirt, every member of RESPECT, every member of STWC, etc). Bring back real punishments for treason and real speed in trials and sentencing (A Tale of Two Cities would be a good place to look for ideas on both). End regimes that threaten the west. Create real disincentives for terrorist attacks (every bomb or attempted bomb on a terrorist target gets one city in a terror supporting country or area nuked).
We now have to relearn courage and ferocity. We must bring back the fire of our ancestors, Churchill, Harris, Nelson, Marlborough, Augustus.
Tehran delenda est. Saud delenda est. Damascus delenda est. Quom delenda est. Pyonyang delenda est.
This war will not be over until our women are veiled and the green banner flies atop Westminster and the Whitehouse or we have proven that jihad means nothing but death and destruction for all that succour it.
You lot may all be partisans of the Oxford Union debaters who declared that they would not fight for any reason, but I believe in death before dishonour and have nor problem doing whatever is necessary to protect Western Civilisation. Whatever is necessary!
After that, we can then go back to our intramural fights about the size of government and I will take up again the suspicion of government intrusion.
Not to mention the fact that there was a primary election in the US 48 hours before this scare, the results of which indicated the Republicans faced quite a drubbing in the November elections.
Coincidental timing? I think not.
On this occasion, Guido, I disagree. But the problem is -- after Iraq, nobody believes British intelligence. After de Menezes and Forest Gate, nobody believes the Met police. Iraq is Tony Blair's fault. The other two (I happen to think) are nobody's fault.
Oh -- and for whoever asked, Margaret Beckett either flew from France, or got the Queen's flight. It is allowed for Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
I don't believe that Guido believe that it's bollocks. He's the one crying wolf.
Blair's timely escape to the Carribean ahead of the terror headlines is a sign that he knows that Alastairt Campbell is about to release another perceptive dossier on why we should stage the next world cup........
Indigo said...
Meanwhile, on page 2: men, women and children continue to be blown to smithereens in Lebanon and Iraq.
8:15 PM
and men, women and children in Israel.
Acetone Peroxide has apparently been a favourite of the police and Number 10 SpAds ever since 7th July 2005 when it was mistakenly presumed by Scotland Yard that this explosive was used in the tube and bus bombings. Unfortunately for Blair and John 'Doctor Gorbals' Reid Acetone Peroxide is worse than useless in its liquid form, since it can't be compressed and thus has less effect than lighting up a can of kerosene - added to the fact that this stuff really stinks badly and is incredibly unstable; only in solid and compressed crystalline form is it a highly explosive compound but again very, very unstable - far more so than nitroglycerine. Not surprisingly the police are tonight claiming that the Muslim terrorists intended to use a 'acetone peroxide-based liquid explosive'.
As for the incredibly stupid and rather fatuous "You've got the lives of 10 * 3,000 people on your consciousness if you opposed the police foiling this plot." comment, I opposed the infamous Red Mercury trial - does that mean I could have upwards of 500,000 dead on my conscious because I, and others, opposed police prosecuting men on completely fabricated grounds?
Congrats, Guido, on drawing attention to this Government's determination to govern by fear.
There's a link to this film - Peace, Propoganda & The Promised Land - from another link on one of these comments. Hers's a direct one: http://video.google.com/
videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696
As the blog comments software cuts long links, I've split it into two parts.
The point of the film is obvious to anyone other than perhaps the most rabid fear-monger. Sort out the illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank and you draw the sting.
Horse Badorties,
Do want more please.
I do believe there are many terrorist plots going on. Many of which the buggers will bottle out of at the last second. Decoys you could say. Lotts of bored Muslim young men living in a sad fanfasy world. Vigins at the end etc, after all no point in looking in London for one over 16 is there?
Have the police found the big wood this time, instead of a few sad sexually frustrated trees? I think only time will tell.
Guido have you forgotton already that this sort of thing HAS happened before? 7/7 for example, only last year. I thought MY memory was getting bad.
Timing however very suspicious. Its not as if they picked them up at the airport is it? The police have many "ongoing investigations" to pull out of the hat whenever Blair gives the word to Blair.
No use some of you socialists moaning to much you voted for the shifty hypocritical creep, I didnt.
Non Sequitur, your facts are uncoordinated...
Young neo con and Hey seem to be the only ones who understand the situation.
Islamofacsists represent a clear and present danger. They are poisoned by psychopathic memes and animated by a desire to strike back at perceived muslim oppressors. Whether the invasion of Iraq / Afghanistan is right or wrong is moot. Whoever threw the first stone; hizbollah or Isreal, is academic. What matters is what the jihadis believe, what they would have us believe and what intentions they are hiding behind their lies. They are prepared kill themselves and take as many other people with them to get their message across.
Conspiracy theories abound from across the political / ideological spectra, all serve to distract from the islamist agenda, I am surprised Guido has subscribed.
The facts will emerge after the spin cycle in a couple of weeks time. Meanwhile there are many other jihadi cells plotting their atrocities right now, The security services have to be lucky all the time... jihadis only have to be lucky once.
A quick calculation shows that these people are NOT fucking about.
12 x Boeing 777 at 385 persons is 4,620
If the aircraft were brought down over American cities there would be many thousands more dead, take a conservative estimate say 500
12 * 500 is 6000
That is a guesstimate of nearly 11,000 people murdered. It could be double or triple that.
I am certain that if the plot suceeded it would have created a monumental global shitstorm.
Mecca could glowing-in-the-dark by now.
How's that for a conspiracy?
Regards
garypowell said...No use some of you socialists moaning to much you voted for the shifty hypocritical creep, I didnt.11:31 PM
Well I did the first time round but then I used to believe in the toothy fairy
greenham woman said...Whoever flew into the twin towers my bullshit detector was alerted when it was announced that they found
a)passports of terrorists in the rubble
b)an abandonded hire car at Boston with a copy of the Koran in it
this within hours of the horrific event. How do you find a passport that has been through that? 7:40 PM
Conspiracy theorists AND those who think everything is black and white might well find this interesting reading,quite long but worth reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladio
oh dear. I came here for political gossip, not CiF nonsense.
Never forget that Osama bin Laden was created by the CIA. All of this began in Afganistan years ago.
Sow the wind,reap the whirlwind.
garypowell said...
I do believe there are many terrorist plots going on. Many of which the buggers will bottle out of at the last second. Decoys you could say. Lotts of bored Muslim young men living in a sad fantasy world.11:31 PM
Or if you want to be really cynical they might monitor groups of disaffected Muslim youths venting on the internet,let them run because venting`s all they`ll ever do,possibly even encourage them towards ever more inflammatory language with an infiltrator.Then pull them in when it suits,make loads of noise and use the internet traffic as "proof" of the forthcoming neutron bomb attack on the local Tesco Metro or whatever,take their computers away in front of the world`s media for effect.When the scare`s served it`s purpose you let them go without charge one or two at a time on days when something dramatic is hogging the headlines and only Channel 4 news give a shit enough to even mention the freed "suspects".
Good to see you've sided with the terrorists Guido and joined the absurd conspiracy theory brigade. You're always boasting about your high readership figures, well, you've just lost one.
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
If you really want an explosive liquid try Kahlua, vodka and milk. Your headache will survive the plane crash, even if you don't.
Thanks for the support, Guido.
In retrospect I understand now why my COBRA-associated acquaintance said he might be busy for a couple of weeks and it might mean some flying, but I was never good at taking a hint...
However, my diagnosis of the same morning was the same as yours, and remains the same. Real terrorists are being blown up (ho, ho) into something much scarier 'cos that suits the joint agenda of our overcontrolling pols and securocrats.
Unemployed young Muslim men-not bored.The devil makes work for idle hands.
If young men feel they have no prospects,of course they will fall prey to extremists.Look what happened in Northern Ireland.
As the offspring of an aeronautical engineer, I have to say that the estimates of casualties here seem a bit...moonbat to me. You'd have to find a place where a thousand people were piled up at one time in order to kill a thousand people. Blowing a plane up over New York would result in less than four hundred immediate casualties (the passengers) plus a helluvalotta grossed out, slimed New Yorkers. When you blow people up, they end up in relatively small particles, not huge, lumbering chunks. They wouldn't kill a whole lot of ground-based people.
At first glance, the plot is plausible - terrorists carrying the ingredients to produce a a mixture of liquids to produce an explosive that can be easily detonated. This could, in the worst case scenario, bring down an aircraft. It is possible - possibly likely that the mixture would not work as planned or that passengers or airline staff would overpower the bombers.
In this case, the police, security and intelligence services had to act. Whether the plot was feasible will be borne out in the courts and scrutinised over the next few months.
The instinctive reaction to suspect government over-reation and spin is perfectly understandable, after all the lies we have been told since 2002 (and before). I strongly suspect that the sinister minister John Reid has planned to use the arrests to boster his own political position. Nevertheless, I believe that there was at least a potential threat.
I tried to make gunpowder and nitroglycerine in school chemistry classes many years ago. Gunpowder was straightforward (as I am sure Guido knows well!) but I couldn't get the nitroglycerine to work. It may well be the case that the conspitators' chemistry was overambitious. An explosive weapon has two fundamental characteristics - it must make the required bang when you want it to, and it must not make the required bang when you don't want it to. It must be both easily exploded and stable. Add to this the various hurdles that the terrorist must overcome - limited resources, limited size of the finished product, size of bang required to cause damage or deaths, overcoming scrutiny and searches etc - making a portable bomb is unlikely to be easy.
billy said... (9:58 PM)
Indigo said...
Meanwhile, on page 2: men, women and children continue to be blown to smithereens in Lebanon and Iraq.
8:15 PM
and men, women and children in Israel.
Actually, in the past month, in wholly illegal actions the State of Israel has continued to kill around 10 times more civilians in Gaza and the Occupied Territories - and in Lebanon 100 times more - than the numbers of Israel civilians killed in that period by anyone else.
And I'm still looking for answers...
"Does anyone know how many of those who have been arrested in these sweeps since 2001 have been convicted and how many have been released?"
"And what happened to the sam missiles that were meant to be the reason for the tanks at Heathrow 2003? Aren't they still out their in the country and if so what's been done to get them? If they didn't actually exist isn't that a paranoid conspiracy theory?"
hey (8.44), This war will not be over until our women are veiled and the green banner flies atop Westminster and the Whitehouse
Really. I can think of worse things than having to wear a veil when I leave the house. And living in an Islamic state just might be more civilised and peaceful than living with an Israel totally out of control. Islam has a tradition of tolerating freedom of worship (eg Christians), although that might not now extend to the tribes of Israel - but, hey, Israel has pissed in the well.
Do you subcontract the weekend production of this website to the Walthamstow radical mosques, Guido?
This is a genuine serious threat to national security. If anything, it shows that our national security laws aren't too tight- they are too weak!
By posting this, you've teamed up with the Taliban and the Trots. Now I know you are a Tory, Guido- but surely that would be an odd alliance even by their motley standards?
I have no idea whether this was a genuine plot: we need to get more reliable information than is given in the mostly lurid media stories.
We are told that an attack was imminent: the terrorists would therefore have known precisely what they were going to do at the time of arrest. However:
(1) The media contain conflicting stories as to whether the explosions were to occur over the Atlantic or over US cities. Which was it?
(2) Most of the liquids that would react to form explosives are very reactive substances. A number have been mentioned in the press. Anyone fancy carrying around concentrated nitric acid in a plastic drinks bottle for 10 hours? Or what about hydrazine - pity it decomposes so easily. Were those arrested in possession of a credible plan for getting the relevant substances on board and preparing an explosive capable of breaching a plane's walls?
If the police can answer such questions credibly over the next few days, fine, this could have been an extremely dangerous conspiracy. Otherwise...
John Marston
Did anyone else notice that Die Hard with a Vengeance has been playing non stop on Sky over the last month, it features a plot involving liquid bombs. Then it happens in real life too. That's some coincidence!
Guido,
If you actually believe that the UK and USA are conspiring to harm their own economic interests and detain innocent British Muslims, cause massive protests from the Muslim community and scare us into supporting neo-conservative foreign policy you need to take a break from the internet.
Maybe you should go and have a holiday yourself, sit by the pool and drink some Sangria.
I find it disturbing you can suggest that our government are our real enemy - you need to get real and find a real cover up to report. Try investigating the cock-up that led to British Customs waving magic mushrooms through Dover and slapping on 17.5% on the way through the green alley.
I'm sure there is any number of similar cock ups the over-sized un-achieving new-labour have made over the last 9 years that you could talk about instead of suggesting that the British establishment are our worst enemy.
the illustrated al-quaedea brainstorm behind the plot
Yo, Blair - remember how invading Iraq was going to make us all safer? As history will relate, more than three years later, we can't take a bottle of water onto an aeroplane. Not that that will disturb your beauty sleep, bitch boy, 'cos you don't use commercial carriers. So long as you are not inconvenienced, the rest of us can go hang. A true leader shares the hardships of the troops; a true leader can be seen in the light of the watchfires in a time of crisis - not mouthing platitudes about "tragedy" on the deck of Saint Cliff's yacht; a true leader knows decent doubt. You are so not our leader.
"Anyone who knows a thing about how surveillance and intervention is conducted would know that "picking them up at the airport" would involve running substantial risks - primarily of losing the suspects, but also of detonation at the moment of intervention, in a crowded public place."
Understandable, so why not pick them up just as they were about to head to the airport? That way they would have had the goods on them but wouldn't have been near to their target.
Come to think of it, have the police found any hard evidence yet? While I'm (currently) sympathetic to the view that there was a plot I fear there is a possibility that either a)there has been a gigantic cockup regarding information or b)the police went for them too early
Was there a plot?
Probably.
Will the government spin this out of all proportions for any political gain they can make, individually or collectively?
Certainly!
How about picking them up without xx Kg of highly unstable explosive substances and an iPod on them? By the way has anyone else managed to convert an iPod to be a detonator (can't even get mine to charge up properly hese days) and which track would the explosive faithful use to kick themselves into touch with Allah?
You know what they're doing with the liquids they confiscate? Dumping them into bins. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the little issue of blowing shit up supposed to happen when you mixed the liquids together?
Anyone following this even half closely will be bemused by all the contradictions.We`re led to believe that the current alert was as a result of information given by Pakistani Intelligence a couple of days ago.Also that security forces were aware if it all along and had even burgled the premises of those responsible,bugging them and making safe noxious substances in the process(so where`s the "sudden and imminent" threat in that case?)That`s just 2 opposing tales,2 of many.It`s already got the makings of the usual balls-up,several different versions of events emerging from people without the wit to even get their heads together to come up with the same story.No-one`s been charged,one has already been released,same old same old.Difference this time is that given the disruption and cost of the latest "alert" should it appear to be the usual dropped bollock Reid would have to go closely followed by Blair and who knows who else.It would be kind of ironic if actions that terrorists DIDN`T take brought down the Government.If you want another conspiracy theory what a great way to get rid of the Government in a bloodless coup,if that sounds far-fetched cast your minds back to Harold Wilson and the security services dirty tricks campaign against him or even C.I.A. meddling with the aid of their Pakistani Allies,this government certainly seems to have out-lived it`s usefulness to Bush for some reason.
Those whose names have been published by the Bank of England (when their assets were frozen) can fairly claim now that they cannot have a fair trial. They have been named before they were charged with anything at all - they are still innocent - and one is a minor.
Dictator Blair is to force through 90-day detention without charge. This tells me that (a) the police do not at the moment have enough evidence to charge those arrested last week with anything (some of them did not, apparently, even have passports); (b) Blair intends that Britain falls in behind whatever Bush wants the war on terra to be until the November mid-term elections are over.
How I wish that Blair would get Raptured.
I've had a horrible thought. The Bank of England has published the names of the suspects, although they have not yet been charged with anything. And, although they have not been charged with anything, should the USA decide it wants them extradited (the pretext being that only American airlines were to be targeted, allegedly), Blair will send them to Bush like he sent the Enron three to Bush. Then Bush will put them in Guantanamo Bay to rot for years without access to lawyers.
And I'm still looking for answers...
"Does anyone know how many of those who have been arrested in these sweeps since 2001 have been convicted and how many have been released?"
"And what happened to the sam missiles that were meant to be the reason for the tanks at Heathrow 2003? Aren't they still out their in the country and if so what's been done to get them? If they didn't actually exist isn't that a paranoid conspiracy theory?"
raincoaster (2.24), you know what they're doing with the liquids they confiscate? Dumping them into bins
And the rest is being sold on eBay (Stateside, anyway). It's all over the Democratic Underground Forum - something for them to be outraged about at last.
My understanding is that it's not unusual to name suspects who've been arrested. If it's fair game in some cases, why not in others? I don't trust the government to be cherry-picking the people it chooses to protect.
Surely if publishing their names guarantees an unfair trial in this case, it does so in all trials. I'm in favour of treating them like everyone else in the system, because if the system's that fucked up, it's time we fixed the bloody thing, isn't it? This looks like the government interfering with the Judiciary, which is never a good thing.
I note with interest that the MSM in North America at least is coming around to Guido's (and my) point of view; that whatever these people were up to, the arrests were timed for political reasons, not safety reasons, and that the timing was coordinated between Downing Street and the White House (or, more likely, Cheney's underground bunker on his island lair).
Cross-posted. Sue me.
Guido (and I) look a bit smarter today than we did two days ago, when everyone was calling us paranoid (among other choice words)
From BoingBoing:
NBC: Hair-gel terrorists posed no risk last week
An anonymous "senior British official knowledgeable about the [hair-gel bombers]" told NBC that there was no threat to airplanes last week, that the terrorists had been under surveillance for over a year, and that UK government didn't plan on arresting these guys until they'd surveilled them a while longer, but moved when they did because of US pressure:
In contrast to previous reports, the official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports...
The official shed light on other aspects of the case, saying that while the investigation into the bombing plot began "months ago," some suspects were known to the security services even before the London subway bombings last year.
Link
raincoaster, in the UK the names of suspects are not publicised until they have been formally charged and identified by the police. In this instance, it appears that the suspects' names were not published by the police but by the Bank of England at the instruction of the British Government. John Reid's pawprints all over this. The government said that in publishing the names, it was not inferring guilt. Bollocks - it is defamation, too.
Stinks.
A Brit posting on the Democratic Underground Forum described Reid as a combination of Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld. That's probably going a bit far - Reid is nothing like as wealthy as they are, AIUI.
Guess your comments only go to show that whilst political hacks may speak to you, those in the intelligence community don't. You're usually cleverer than this, Guido. This plan and many others, have been prevented by hard work and good luck and, unfortunately, they're not going to go away just because people - like you - choose to believe some half-arsed conspiracy theory.
indigo: very interesting, thanks. So they haven't been charged with any offences at this point? Wonder what's taking so long.
'we shall fight them from the beaches'
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Countdown-Terror-Nexus-8-14-06.wmv
is a rather interesting clip of a US TV show - "Countdown" - in which he discusses the nexus of politics and terror. It is definitely worth a watch.
32mb file
Yes well it seems doing a wild goose chase is good for getting everyone in a panic, and showing you're doing something for national security. Remember putting blast barriers around Parliament? Or the army with tanks at Heathrow?
Still much better better than last year's little PR stunt called "shoot dead the Arab terrorist", who actually turned out to be just a Brazillian student.
Course this will show how much we need an ID card scheme and tougher rules for holding suspected terrorists/innocent members of the public - just like Big Tony has been saying all along.
But the good news is, this shouldn't affect the Blair family holiday, because when they holiday abroad they choose Royal Flights, the Politician Airline of choice - London to Derby our speciality!